Nick Matzke posted Entry 2848 on January 19, 2007 05:49 PM.
Trackback URL: http://www.pandasthumb.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.fcgi/2838

Convicted felon Kent Hovind’s sentencing was today, and again the Pensacola News-Journal has the story:

Pensacola evangelist Kent Hovind was sentenced Friday afternoon to 10 years in prison on charges of tax fraud.

After a lengthy sentencing hearing that last 5 1/2 hours, U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers ordered Hovind also:

– Pay $640,000 in restitution to the Internal Revenue Service.

– Pay the prosecution’s court costs of $7,078.

– Serve three years parole once he is released from prison.

Not knowing anything about sentencing, I had figured Hovind would get time already served plus probation or something. I guess not. Probably with good behavior this will become 5 years or less of actual prison time. The moral of the story: living in your own personal alternate reality works for only so long. That, and don’t tick off the IRS.

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Comment #156509

Posted by RBH on January 19, 2007 6:26 PM (e)

A lawyer on Infidels noted that Federal sentences tend not to be reduced much (if any) for good behavior, and suggested that Hovind would serve at least 85% of the sentence.

RBH

Comment #156510

Posted by stevaroni on January 19, 2007 6:33 PM (e)

After this and Kitzmiller It seems that when the chips are on the line, the, um, unnamed designer, doesn’t exactly have his footsoliders backs.

Comment #156511

Posted by David B. Benson on January 19, 2007 6:35 PM (e)

Lying for Jesus doesn’t pay…

Comment #156512

Posted by carlos on January 19, 2007 6:42 PM (e)

doesn’t this make him a martyr?

Comment #156517

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on January 19, 2007 7:03 PM (e)

doesn’t this make him a martyr?

To the IRS, maybe. Scientists had nothing to do with this.

And anyway, it seems like the threshold for martyrdom is getting pretty low these days. If someone gets thrown to lions, sure, they deserve to be called a martyr. But ending up in prison for years of lawbreaking, threatening government employees, and ignoring all warnings and chances to make things right, is something else entirely.

Comment #156520

Posted by David B. Benson on January 19, 2007 7:14 PM (e)

Nick — Maybe his followers will now call him a ‘martyr’, but surely the IRS will not. They will simply quote scripture along the lines of

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…

Comment #156525

Posted by Doc Bill on January 19, 2007 7:38 PM (e)

Hovind was quoted in the article as saying that “thousands” of his supporters would pay his fine.

Wouldn’t these contributions be considered income on which he would have to pay tax? Furthermore, how would he set up a contribution drop box from prison?

Comment #156530

Posted by i like latin on January 19, 2007 7:48 PM (e)

Funny or should I more accurately say appauling the lack of personal responsibility for ones actions. Great role model for all those kids out there.

Comment #156535

Posted by J-Dog on January 19, 2007 8:55 PM (e)

OMG! Who is going to take care of all his poor dino’s for the next ten long, long years? Hovind will probably have to sell them to Ken Ham, and the dino’s will have to walk all the way from FL to KY… it will be another “Trail Of Tears”, only this time they will be tears of laughter.

Perhaps Hovind’s dinos are haunted by SATAN and just like an intelligently designed virus, they will infect Ham’s Dinos too. Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of knuckleheads.

Jeez! If Ham does go down the same way, maybe there is a god after all!

Nah… but it would be funny!

Comment #156541

Posted by kjvdoc on January 19, 2007 10:03 PM (e)

Please evaluate the law that was changed by the judge at the time of the closing arguments to read in essence that the “crime” of structuring is applied to an amount less than $10,000 instead of “more than.” Please evaluate that the judge would not allow Supreme Court rulings into this case (Cheek) that completely nulifies the prosecution. Please hold onto your own civil rights as we all wave good bye to them.

Comment #156542

Posted by david gehrig on January 19, 2007 10:07 PM (e)

“If it’s just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach,” Hovind said.

Sociopath.

Comment #156545

Posted by Cedric Katesby on January 19, 2007 10:38 PM (e)

“Please evaluate the law, blah, blah, blah…”
Evaluate? Wha..?
“Supreme Court rulings into this case (Cheek) that completely nulifies the prosecution.”
Next time you visit Hovind in prison, be sure he gets your “sound legal opinion”.

Comment #156546

Posted by Mark Studdock, FCD on January 19, 2007 10:44 PM (e)

I am not a proponent of YEC, but for the record and against speculations or talk categorizing Hovind with other YECers or all YECers, the following should be acknowledged.

From Wikipedia’s page on Hovind:

“Criticism

From creationists

Hovind has come into conflict with other young earth creationists, who believe that many of his arguments are invalid and, consequently, undermine their cause. One in particular, Answers in Genesis, has publicly criticized him [62] after he had criticized AiG’s article, “Arguments we think creationists should NOT use”.[63] In the letter Carl Wieland, Ken Ham, and Jonathan Sarfati noted that some claims made by Hovind are “fraudulent” and “mistakes in facts and logic which do the creationist cause no good.”[62] He is also criticized by Creation Ministries International (formerly AiG Australia). Their article “Maintaining Creationist Integrity”[64] responds to Hovind’s criticism of the original Answers in Genesis article.

Hovind who has stated carbon dating is unreliable, was criticized by Greg Neyman of Answers In Creation noting that in his statements “Hovind goes on to show that he knows absolutely nothing about the science of Carbon Dating.”[65] In fact, as Neyman explained, Hovind’s claim that “scientists assume the amount of carbon-14 is constant” is wrong and Neyman writes “there are many periods of decreasing C-14, which disproves his theory that the earth is young based on C-14 equilibrium.”[65]”

Comment #156548

Posted by Mike on January 19, 2007 11:03 PM (e)

[Fx: shadenfreude]

Comment #156549

Posted by deadman_932 on January 19, 2007 11:13 PM (e)

Probably with good behavior this will become 5 years or less of actual prison time.

As far as I know, the feds don’t give parole and they also only allow a maximum of 54 days/year “ good time.” Ol’ Kent’s gonna be doin’ over 8, total.

This sentence is in line with other similar cases, although I like to think Kent pissed off the judge by smugly asking: “How would YOU know about this, your honor? WERE YOU THERE?!?!?!”

Comment #156551

Posted by Jake on January 19, 2007 11:24 PM (e)

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…

Hmm. So IRS = Ceasar. That seems about right.

Comment #156557

Posted by Gary Hurd on January 20, 2007 12:46 AM (e)

Please hold onto your own civil rights as we all wave good bye to them.

I am willing to agree with you on a narrow point; the rightwing have done their best to destroy most civil liberty that is the true core of America. We liberals have been intimidated by threats of being “traitors” for too long. The Constitution was a liberal document written by liberal men. The extremist elements; whether from the rightwing libritarian, the “social conservative” fundamentalist, or the neofacist oppose the protection of individual civil rights. They unite to reject and attack public education.

However, the leftwing is too happy to applaud when the radical right is limited in their political expression.

Christian Dominionists are balanced by New Age leftists and such neoLuddites as PETA and the semi-group “ELF.” The overall record is that the right is far more deadly than the left, from Oklahoma to New York. Even the war in Iraq would have been impossible without the rightwing backing for George “dubua.”

May they rot.

Comment #156593

Posted by Zarquon on January 20, 2007 2:06 AM (e)

Gary Hurd wrote:

the semi-group “ELF.”

Erisian Liberation Front? fnord

Comment #156606

Posted by Popper's ghost on January 20, 2007 2:37 AM (e)

I am not a proponent of YEC, but for the record and against speculations or talk categorizing Hovind with other YECers or all YECers, the following should be acknowledged

It’s always interesting to see how the mental defects that lead people to deny evolution or support ID manifest in other areas. That some other YECs disagree with Hovind on some issues doesn’t change the fact that he’s a YEC. As for “categorizing Hovind with … all YECers”, this displays a failure to grasp the concept of categorization. I am “categorized with all human beings”, but that doesn’t mean that I agree with other human beings on any particular subject, or that I have same height or eye color as “all human beings”, or any other trait that is not a defining characteristic of human beings.

Of course, in addition to being incredibly dimwitted, this troll who claims to be a “FCD” is also incredibly dishonest. The opening paragraph of the wikipedia article says that Hovind is a “prominent ‘Young Earth’ creationist”, something the troll fails to mention, let alone “acknowledge”.

Comment #156610

Posted by Popper's ghost on January 20, 2007 2:52 AM (e)

Christian Dominionists are balanced by New Age leftists and such neoLuddites as PETA and the semi-group “ELF.”

That’s ridiculous; they are not balanced, either in numbers or political strength. And there’s nothing particularly “leftist” about “New Age”, and certainly not PETA, which is authoritarian. Because of the near-total exclusion of left voices by the corporate media, few Americans have any idea what “leftist” means. If you’re looking for American leftists, go to www.zmag.org, where you won’t find anything about chakras or pets.

Comment #156611

Posted by Popper's ghost on January 20, 2007 2:55 AM (e)

Hmm. So IRS = Ceasar. That seems about right.

Jesus’s “render” statement was specifically about taxes. And how do you manage to misspell Caesar when there were two correct spellings on you screen?

Comment #156613

Posted by Popper's ghost on January 20, 2007 3:00 AM (e)

Oy … make that “your”. Not that my own typo invalidates my point.

Comment #156631

Posted by Jason Spaceman on January 20, 2007 4:25 AM (e)

What an idiot Hovind is. Taped phone conversations played during his sentencing showed him threatening the judge and prosecutor, and attempting to hide assets from the government. No wonder they gave him 10 years.

A decade for ‘Dr. Dino’:

A newly remorseful Pensacola evangelist, who still disputes the government’s right to make him pay taxes, was sentenced Friday afternoon to 10 years in prison on federal tax charges.

His wife, Jo, will be sentenced March 1 on charges of evading bank-reporting requirements.

Before his sentencing, a tearful Kent Hovind compared his situation to that of the lion and the mouse in Aesop’s Fables.

“I feel like the mouse,” Hovind told U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers. “I stand here in great fear of the power of this court. Your decision can destroy my life, my ministry and my grandchildren.”

Hovind’s courtroom comments were in stark contrast to more-combative statements he made in recent telephone calls from Escambia County Jail.

In a recording of one of the telephone conversations played in court Friday, Hovind said the Internal Revenue Service, presiding judge and prosecutor broke the law by going after him, and there were things he could do “to make their lives miserable.”

Comparing himself to a buffalo in a lion fight, Hovind’s voice was heard saying “As long as I have some horns, I’m going to swing. As long as I have some hoofs, I’m going to kick. As long as I have some teeth, I’m going to fight. The lion’s going to know he’s been in a fight.”…

…The recordings, compiled by the IRS from phone conversations from jail, showed Kent Hovind was trying to hide assets from the government, Assistant U.S. Attorney Michelle Heldmyer said.

In one phone conversation played in court, Kent Hovind was heard to advise a business partner to put only “what you can afford to lose” in a church account.

Comment #156635

Posted by Daniel Morgan on January 20, 2007 4:58 AM (e)

Right now, the PNJ has a BROKEN LINK to the audio of these calls Hovind made running his stupid mouth. But, I suspect they’ll have the link fixed soon, and I can’t wait to listen to him blather on about how he’s going to “fight” like a buffalo against lions. Hilarious.

Comment #156644

Posted by ben on January 20, 2007 5:36 AM (e)

Comparing himself to a buffalo in a lion fight

Such “fights” nearly always end with a bunch of plump, sleepy lions near a vulture-covered buffalo carcass. Good analogy.

Comment #156657

Posted by k.e. on January 20, 2007 7:06 AM (e)

buuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrp!!!

Next….

Comment #156664

Posted by Gerard Harbison on January 20, 2007 8:04 AM (e)

I dunno if it’s entirely wise for YECcers to be outing themselves on this thread. With this clear evidence that the IRS is controlled by the eeevil Darwinist Conspiracy ™, if I were they, I’d be keeping my head down and making sure my receipts are filed in chronological order.

Comment #156668

Posted by Peter Henderson on January 20, 2007 9:12 AM (e)

No more Jack Chick comics from Hovind for a while then:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01…

Comment #156672

Posted by Torbjörn Larsson on January 20, 2007 10:08 AM (e)

[schadenfreude]
First it was Be-He-He-He in Dover, now as a belated yule present Ho-Ho-Ho-vind in prison.

What’s next - Do’h-Do’h-Do’h-mbski in drag?
[/schadenfreude]

It is almost a shame it’s for real, because it is very tempting to continue and make Hovind the butt of prison jokes.

Comment #156679

Posted by haceaton on January 20, 2007 11:30 AM (e)

“Please evaluate ….”

From the statute:
§ 103.63 Structured transactions.
No person shall for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of § 103.22 with respect to such transaction:
(a) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under § 103.22;
(b) Cause or attempt to cause a domestic financial institution to file a report required under § 103.22 that contains a material omission or misstatement of fact; or
© Structure (as that term is defined in § 103.11(n) of this part) or assist in structuring, or attempt to structure or assist in structuring, any transaction with one or more domestic financial institution.

Pretty straightforward; no mention of more than or less than $10,000. The “structuring” of the transaction was to to make it less than $10,000 for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements by “cause[ing] a domestic financial institution to fail to file a report required under § 103.22. It’s plain as day a violation of the law as enacted. No miscarriage of justice here, just a slam-dunk case.

But thanks for playing.

Comment #156691

Posted by Peter on January 20, 2007 12:38 PM (e)

Schadenfreude is one of my favorite words even it it’s a nasty one.

Comment #156703

Posted by brightmoon on January 20, 2007 2:33 PM (e)

ouch ..i guess lying & cheating doesnt always pay for creationists

Comment #156708

Posted by Joe McFaul on January 20, 2007 3:10 PM (e)

Syntax Error: mismatched tag 'kwickxml'

Comment #156711

Posted by bob on January 20, 2007 3:32 PM (e)

If you check out drdino.com, you can see Dr. Hovind’s tour schedule.

April 01, 2007 Dr. Kent Hovind Farmville VA
May 04, 2007 Dr. Kent Hovind Denison TX
September 02, 2007 Dr. Kent Hovind Anchorage AK
September 16, 2007 Dr. Kent Hovind Cheektawaga NY

I wonder if he has given any refunds yet?

Comment #156712

Posted by Laser on January 20, 2007 3:36 PM (e)

“I feel like the mouse,” Hovind told U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers. “I stand here in great fear of the power of this court. Your decision can destroy my life, my ministry and my grandchildren.”

Another classic avoidance of responsibility by one who proclaimed himself to be righteous. It was his decisions that led to the imprisonment and upheaval in his life.

Comment #156713

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on January 20, 2007 3:43 PM (e)

Evidently Hovind’s Creation Science Evangelism ministry is going to continue under the leadership of his son, Eric Hovind:

Eric Hovind at CSE Blogs

I have been working for my dad all my life. He has taught me everything from how to ride a bike to how to build a house. I have learned a great deal from him as I have served with this ministry in doing everything from digging ditches to speaking in churches for eight years now. I have had the opportunity to present my dad’s seminar in more than 40 states and six countries. This message and information on creation still amazes me! I will be continuing my speaking schedule to include the requests for creation talks that come in weekly. In fact, the Creation message will be the sole focus of my speaking engagements, as that is the battlefield that God has called our team to fight in. So our ministry to churches, conferences, and public engagements will not change. I would encourage you to schedule in advance and sooner-vs-later since we have one less speaker on our team for the time being.

However I don’t know if he’s a “Dr.” like Hovind Sr.

Comment #156714

Posted by Jason Spaceman on January 20, 2007 3:44 PM (e)

The Hovind jail cell phone calls are now available online. Listen to them here.

Comment #156717

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on January 20, 2007 4:00 PM (e)

Oh man, the Hovind recording is now up on PNJ website.

Around minute seven there is some really sad stuff where Hovind’s wife is trying to tell him that she would like him to change, and of course he doesn’t get it.

Comment #156724

Posted by kjvdoc on January 20, 2007 5:02 PM (e)

Dear “slamdunk,”
Please take a look at the rest of the statute that you didn’t post:

Sec. 103.22 Reports of transactions in currency.

(2) Multiple transactions–general. In the case of financial institutions other than casinos, for purposes of this section, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the financial institution has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any one business day (or in the case of the Postal Service, any one day). Deposits made at night or over a weekend or holiday shall be treated as if received on the next business day
following the deposit.
The entire structuring case is bogus. They never showed one time where the Hovinds in one business day took out more than $10,000 in multiple withdrawals in effect to prevent the reporting to the IRS. But again, thanks for letting me play and I wish you good luck when the storm troopers come to your door. Who will you call on that day?

Comment #156726

Posted by NJ on January 20, 2007 5:29 PM (e)

Bob wrote:

If you check out drdino.com, you can see Dr. Hovind’s tour schedule.

April 01, 2007 Dr. Kent Hovind Farmville VA

Some jokes just write themselves…

Comment #156728

Posted by MartinM on January 20, 2007 5:40 PM (e)

They never showed one time where the Hovinds in one business day took out more than $10,000 in multiple withdrawals in effect to prevent the reporting to the IRS

If the Hovinds had taken out more than $10k in multiple withdrawals in a single business day, it would have been treated as a single withdrawal, under precisely the statute you quote, and would have been reported. You’re basically trying to argue that moving large amounts of money around in small chunks to avoid reporting is legal, unless you do it in a really stupid way which doesn’t actually work.

Comment #156730

Posted by H. Humbert on January 20, 2007 6:00 PM (e)

Posted by Jason Spaceman on January 20, 2007 3:44 PM (e)

The Hovind jail cell phone calls are now available online. Listen to them here.

Wow, talk about self-deluded. This guy has zero connection to reality. It was painful to listen to him repeat over and over again how the lawmen were the lawbreakers and how they should be worried about being held accountable by him.

This guy doesn’t get it and probably never will. 10 years wasn’t enough.

Comment #156732

Posted by kjvdoc on January 20, 2007 6:37 PM (e)

Dear Bob, No refund will be needed for future cancelled seminars since Dr. Hovind never charges for seminars. Thank you for your comment nevertheless.

Comment #156734

Posted by Steviepinhead on January 20, 2007 6:44 PM (e)

Well, at least he’s charging what they’re worth.

Exactly nothing.

Actually, when you adjust for all the flat-out lies, deceitfulness, and distortions, he should probably be reimbursing all the attendees he’s defrauded over the years.

Comment #156737

Posted by steve s on January 20, 2007 7:27 PM (e)

Comment #156717

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on January 20, 2007 4:00 PM (e) | kill

Oh man, the Hovind recording is now up on PNJ website.

Around minute seven there is some really sad stuff where Hovind’s wife is trying to tell him that she would like him to change, and of course he doesn’t get it.

You might be surprised to hear it, but I have a lot of pity for people like Kent Hovind. The reason is, I know Kent Hovinds. There are several among my eastern Kentucky relatives. They aren’t deliberately bad people, they’re just too dumb to know fact from fiction. They believe things like the constitution was never ratified, FDR knew about and allowed Pearl Harbor, there is a satanic conspiracy throughout the federal government, Eric Rudolph was framed, the Clintons attempted mind control through vaccinations, Flouride is some kind of conspiracy by Alcoa(?) etc. (along with the usual YEC stuff, of course). They don’t believe those things because they’re evil, they are just too stupid to know any better. And I am sure some of them have bought into the ‘taxes are illegal’ kind of nonsense Hovind bought into. I can’t get much enjoyment out of someone getting into serious trouble because they don’t have the brains to know any better.

***

(If you want an example of this level of cluelessness, here’s something a relative told me at a family reunion: “The earth don’t move through space at no thousand miles a’ hour. The wind’d tear everything off it.”)

Comment #156740

Posted by mike on January 20, 2007 8:04 PM (e)

It is one of the signs of legal crackpotism that folk like kjvdoc think prosecutions succeed despite holes in their cases that amateurs can point out. Just like the way creationist crackpots (the latter redundant, I know) think that evolution can be brought down by saying it is contrary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics or because survival of the fittest is a tautology.

The Hovind clan used scams like having multiple family members cash checks for $9,000 on the same day. kjvdoc is just out there lying for creationism and crackpotism.

Comment #156743

Posted by Steviepinhead on January 20, 2007 8:15 PM (e)

Hovind may well be clueless and stupid, but in this case he’s also culpable for an intentional and long-term effort to defraud the government.

Nobody’s cheering for the IRS here or standing in line to pay taxes.

But when cheats like Hovind pay MUCH less than they should, the (relatively) honest rest of us pay more.

Good riddance.

Comment #156744

Posted by Jon Williams on January 20, 2007 8:17 PM (e)

Blog Survey.
True or False?
Hovind is a sinner.

Comment #156749

Posted by David B. Benson on January 20, 2007 8:35 PM (e)

steve s — I would say ignorant rather than stupid or ‘dumb’. Some of those red-neck crackers have quite a good head on their shoulders…

Comment #156750

Posted by haceaton on January 20, 2007 8:52 PM (e)

kvjdoc wrote:

Please take a look at the rest of the statute that you didn’t post…

Glad I was able to at least get you reading what the law actually says by providing a link to it for you. Unfortunately you don’t have very good reading comprehension. As MartinM pointed out, they won’t normally be charged with a §103.63 violation by making multiple transaction in a single day because the bank will follow the law (§103.22) and report the transactions. (It’s still possible to be charged because if you had intent to cause the bank not to report by your less than brilliant plan that is still illegal even though it was actually reported. Normally a prosecutor won’t try to make that case because intent is hard to prove. In the case of a nut job like Kent Hovind maybe it’s not too hard.) What Kent and Jo mostly did was to structure their transactions to actually evade the reporting. That is a much easier to prove §103.63 violation.

I feel slightly sorry for Jo since she seems to have only gone along with this because she’s ignorant and takes the whole “obey” scripture a bit too seriously. As for Kent, well it’s pretty clear that even 8 years in prison probably won’t quell his delusions. I expect he’ll violate parole within the first year after he gets out, or worse commit some felonies (perjury comes to mind) while in the poky to extend his time.

I don’t worry about the “storm troopers” coming for me because I don’t flagrantly violate the law. I guess you do and that’s why you’re worried.

Again, thanks for playing. If you get good enough at this game you might eventually realize that Hovind is an actual criminal and you’ve been grossly mistaken about what the law does and does not say.

Comment #156752

Posted by stevaroni on January 20, 2007 9:09 PM (e)

kjvdoc wrathfully wrote…

Dear “slamdunk,”
Please take a look at the rest of the statute that you didn’t post:

… ( statute Sec. 103.22 )…

The entire structuring case is bogus.They never showed one time where the Hovinds in one business day …

Nope, kjvdoc, slamdunk got it right.

Sec. 103.22 lays out the obligations of the financial institution in complying with the laws. The bank is not obligated to expend resources tracking multi-day financial transactions.

But, significantly, neither are they forbidden from doing so. In fact, you could reasonably argue that other sections of the law require them to report extremely suspicious activity, even if not specifically enumerated. Say, for example, someone coming in with 40,000 quarters they day after a local arcade was robbed.

The individual on the other hand is a different story. The crime, described rather succinctly in section 103.63, is for the individual to purposely evade the reporting requirements by sliding in multiple transactions just under cap. Significantly, there is no defined time limit. In the case of the Hovinds, such a crime, and criminal state of mind, was amply demonstrated during the trial, sometimes in their own words.

(Note to would-be tax cheats; For cryin’ out loud - don’t discuss the details of your crime on the prison phone line. Really, it’s kind of junior varsity, isn’t it?).

The farcical shame of it all is that Sec 103.22 lays out all kinds of organizations that don’t have to be reported by banks. Had Hovind bothered to legitimize his operation in any of several possible forms, he would fall under the run-of-the-mill small business exemptions which exist specifically so banks don’t have to waste their time filing reports over ordinary organizations (like churches) with moderate cash income and payrolls.

I guess those tinfoil hats must make your brain all sweaty and scramble your thoughts or something.

Comment #156753

Posted by bob on January 20, 2007 9:11 PM (e)

NJ

The really sad thing is that there is a prison in Farmville VA, where Hovind is suppose to make an appearance on 4/1/2007.

Bob

Comment #156755

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on January 20, 2007 9:19 PM (e)

steve s — I would say ignorant rather than stupid or ‘dumb’.

Neither of these terms quite captures what is going on. I think this book may get us closer to the phenomenon:

See the book On Bull#&@% by Princeton philosopher Harry G. Frankfurt

Here is a description:

“One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bull#&@%,” Harry G. Frankfurt writes, in what must surely be the most eyebrow-raising opener in modern philosophical prose. “Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted.” This compact little book, as pungent as the phenomenon it explores, attempts to articulate a theory of this contemporary scourge–what it is, what it does, and why there’s so much of it. The result is entertaining and enlightening in almost equal measure. It can’t be denied; part of the book’s charm is the puerile pleasure of reading classic academic discourse punctuated at regular intervals by the word “bull#&@%.” More pertinent is Frankfurt’s focus on intentions–the practice of bull#&@%, rather than its end result. Bull#&@%ting, as he notes, is not exactly lying, and bull#&@% remains bull#&@% whether it’s true or false. The difference lies in the bull#&@%ter’s complete disregard for whether what he’s saying corresponds to facts in the physical world: he “does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bull#&@% is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.”

I would submit that there is a whole segment of the culture that operates in this fashion – endless opinions, little investigation. Some people get so good at it (and there is a large audience for it), that they do it for a living, thus producing folks like Hovind.

Comment #156756

Posted by steve s on January 20, 2007 9:29 PM (e)

Comment #156749

Posted by David B. Benson on January 20, 2007 8:35 PM (e) | kill

steve s — I would say ignorant rather than stupid or ‘dumb’. Some of those red-neck crackers have quite a good head on their shoulders…

I would never say all rednecks are stupid. I’m a redneck, and I don’t think I’m too dumb. I know lots of rednecks and urban types and I think brainpower is pretty well distributed among both types. The people I’m talking about aren’t merely ignorant. Kent Hovind isn’t merely ignorant. Those few relatives I’m talking about aren’t merely ignorant. The decisions they make, the beliefs they hold, seem detatched from all reason. They lack the mental skills to distinguish the likely from the unlikely, the reasonable from the impossible. It’s a complete and enduring inability to tell good ideas from bad ones. To me, that seems different from ignorance….or maybe I just think that because I’m a dumb redneck.

Comment #156799

Posted by Peter on January 21, 2007 5:11 AM (e)

Laser said:
Another classic avoidance of responsibility by one who proclaimed himself to be righteous. It was his decisions that led to the imprisonment and upheaval in his life.

Exactly. When we read Creationist literature (damn, I wish it weren’t possible to put the two former words next to one another) itself and its critiques of the ToE’s outcomes, we always encounter the ensuing lawless moral decay that will arise if we accept that we “evolutionized from primordial mud” as Tom DeLay said. It’s all over the Gish and Morris stuff. We won’t have moral standards because we will have thrown God out and we won’t have to be responsible for our actions because we will operate in a bedlam of total moral relativism that promotes only the survival of the fittest.
Look who’s acting that way. Isn’t it a kind of Socially Darwinistic tack to horde all of your own resources and refuse to share them with those around you? Isn’t one of the seven deadly sins greed? I know he’s a Protestant but come on people. What are those warnings about Mammon in the Bible?
Regarding the ignorance, stupidity and bull**** debate: I’d also like to add that in the culture of Creationists there is an extensive and ingrained belief in the simple power of authority and the authority’s arguments. I don’t remember who already said it here, but Jo seems to have been taken for a ride because she took her subordination a bit too seriously while Kent endorsed his authority position - one granted to him by the Biblical literalist culture - a bit too much and it went right to his head. I’d say it is certainly ignorance, stupidity and surely bull****, but also an enculturated respect for at least ignorance and bull****.

Comment #156810

Posted by DMC on January 21, 2007 8:02 AM (e)

Over at Red State Rabble, under the post HARD TIME, a lawyer named O’Connor is calling for HOVIND and his wife to be murdered in prison, like Dahmer.

Pat Hayes frequently deletes and bans, but has left this up.

Ed Brayton on his blog agrees that this looks like what O’Connor is advocating, and some are calling for his Ethics Committee to be notified.

Frankly, this kind of talk doesn’t help. Hovind was wrong and was prosecuted.

Persecution becomes something else.

Comment #156832

Posted by Dan on January 21, 2007 11:32 AM (e)

Steve S wrote: “Those few relatives I’m talking about are’t merely ignorant. The decisions they make, the beliefs they hold, seem detached from all reason. They lack the mental skills to distinguish the likely from the unlikely, the reasonable from the impossible. It’s a complete and enduring inability to tell good ideas from bad ones.”

I think that you are touching on the essence of the problem here Steve.
How is it that we (Humans) are able to deconstruct and reason and conceive of such complex ideas (like - oh Evolution, for instance), and yet seem to be so utterly incapable of grasping the difference between dearly held beliefs and mere facts.
This is an idea that has been fascinating me for quite some time, and it really is spotlighted by continued religious doctrine being accepted over observed reality in 21st century America. YECs exhibit an excessive capacity for this sort of self-delusion, but I do notice a little of this tendency in all humans.
What would be the survival benefits of delusional, illogical tendencies? I think that it may be an extension of our pattern-projecting abilities and the ability to imagine possible futures that enable us to make plans.

Dan

Comment #156837

Posted by Salim Fadhley on January 21, 2007 12:05 PM (e)

Looky, conservative sites are already calling him a “martyr”. Wow:

http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2007/01/21/k…

Comment #156840

Posted by Erasmus on January 21, 2007 12:31 PM (e)

anyone else notice that some genius posting at the CSEblogs post that nick put up has begun calling for GW Bush to give Dr Dino a full pardon?

i’d rather they were cellmates instead.

Comment #156846

Posted by David B. Benson on January 21, 2007 1:26 PM (e)

steve s, Nick et al. — Good points. Some people are dogmatically rigid. That is not just simple ignorance, although it might be correlated with stupidity. Dunno.

Good discussion about this. Thank you, each and every one…

Comment #156858

Posted by stevaroni on January 21, 2007 2:54 PM (e)

Looky, conservative sites are already calling him a “martyr”. Wow:

Frankly, I’m baffled.

Did the big, mean secular liberal government demand he stop preaching about Christ?

No.

Did the atheist judges prevent him from ministering to his flock?

Um, no.

Did the amoral Darwinists get equal time in his church to present the evil evolutionary alternative?

Nope.

What did he go to jail for? Enriching himself by withholding payroll taxes. How can this conceivably make him a martyr?

Is there a new commandment “It shalt be OK to skim the proceeds of your ministry”?

Or a biblical passage that says “Lo, shall thou refuse to treat your everyday payroll just like everybody else in the land doeseth”.?

Even his supporters eventually admit that he’s guilty of run-of-the-mill tax fraud.

In the quoted link, the poster (who signs off “yours in Christ”) says “that this month’s charity will be … we are going to get together and help pay off his tax bill.”

Funny, when I ask myself “What would Jesus do” I seldom come up with an answer like “Bail out tax frauds”.

On the other hand, it’s been amusing to watch what happens when two great pole-stars of conservative thinking like “lock em up and throw away the key” and “The secular government represses Christians” come crashing together in the same brain.

I haven’t had this much fun with schadenfreude since the Right Reverend “zippy” Haggard got outed last year.

Fortunately, even on a conservative blog, the comments indicate that the great majority of readers are simply not buying the martyr complex.

Comment #156859

Posted by John Marley on January 21, 2007 2:57 PM (e)

Erasmus:

Please, don’t spread that around! The eleventh-hour pardon is a time honored tradition. If Hovind gets out after only 2 years, I’m blaming you.

Comment #156865

Posted by David B. Benson on January 21, 2007 3:08 PM (e)

stevaroni — Jesus was willing to talk with tax collectors, the most despised of men…

Nothing about tax cheats, AFAIK.

Comment #156888

Posted by Gary Hurd on January 21, 2007 5:41 PM (e)

Too bad fundies ignore the Bible:
Romans 13:
3. […] Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4. for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
6. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

I don’t find the last part of verse 6, “… for rulers are servants of God …” at all credible, but then I am not a literalist.

Comment #156913

Posted by stevaroni on January 21, 2007 8:39 PM (e)

Too bad fundies ignore the Bible:

Let’s start with the obvious…

Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Two oldies but goodies.

Comment #156933

Posted by Carol Clouser on January 22, 2007 12:07 AM (e)

Stevaroni wrote:

“Let’s start with the obvious…

“Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not bear false witness.

“Two oldies but goodies”.

I don’t give a whit for Hovind, but not paying taxes is not the same as stealing. After all, it is the IRS that is trying to take Hovind’s money, and Hovind is trying to hold on to his own. You can actually argue that the IRS is trying to rob Hovind of HIS hard-earned money. Not paying your taxes is illegal but it is not stealing.

Now, about bearing false witness…that’s another matter.

Comment #156937

Posted by Anton Mates on January 22, 2007 12:45 AM (e)

Carol Clouser wrote:

I don’t give a whit for Hovind, but not paying taxes is not the same as stealing.

It is if you employ the governmental services those taxes are supposed to fund. For instance, Hovind has called the police before.

Comment #156985

Posted by Popper's ghost on January 22, 2007 6:37 AM (e)

I don’t give a whit for Hovind, but not paying taxes is not the same as stealing.

By law, the money belongs to the government. Failure to pay it is an illegal conversion, which is a form of theft.

Comment #157018

Posted by MartinM on January 22, 2007 8:57 AM (e)

Steve S:

Those few relatives I’m talking about are’t merely ignorant. The decisions they make, the beliefs they hold, seem detached from all reason. They lack the mental skills to distinguish the likely from the unlikely, the reasonable from the impossible. It’s a complete and enduring inability to tell good ideas from bad ones.

Reminds me of Americal Idol, actually. Think of all the truly atrocious ‘singers’ who audition and are utterly convinced of their own brilliance. They clearly have no talent whatsoever, and yet are genuinely shocked when the judges vote them down. They lack not only the skills necessary to perform, but also those necessary to evaluate their performance.

Comment #157031

Posted by stevaroni on January 22, 2007 10:09 AM (e)

Carol wrote…

I don’t give a whit for Hovind, but not paying taxes is not the same as stealing.

Well, we agree on Hovind. :D

But you don’t think being a tax cheat is a sin under the catch-all phrase “stealing”?

I think I’d have to disagree with that, being as I’d always considered the Bible to be a book about laws in the moral sense instead of legal sense.

Sins tend to be broadly defined, and frankly, I never thought God would have much tolerance for those who do something they know is wrong but do it anyway because they think it slides in under a strict reading of the rules. (The no controlling legal authority argument).

It didn’t work with Mom when we were kids ( “But Mommy, you told me not to punch my brother – so I didn’t. I kicked him instead.” ) I wouldn’t expect it to work with God if you have to show up at the pearly gates with a lawyer in tow to answer those “tricky” questions.

Especially since the Bible is so fond of those sins of omission – those things you know you should have done, but didn’t do anyway.

I always thought that “thou shalt not steal” would be expansive enough to cover pretty much all knowingly larcenous behaviors, much like “honor thine father and mother” can reasonably be read to mean that you shouldn’t be an a-hole to your grandparents or the crazy old lady with all the cats.

On the other hand, I’m certainly not a biblical scholar, so I don’t know how picky God is supposed to be. I have some friends who are very orthodox Jews and I’m always amazed how carefully and closely they parse all things kosher. For example they won’t make an outgoing phone call on the Sabbath, but they can pick up a ringing phone and talk for hours because there’s a difference between initiating a current flow in the lines and simply allowing it.

Maybe God is into the fine print after all.

Comment #157056

Posted by Carol Clouser on January 22, 2007 1:58 PM (e)

Stevaroni and Anton,

What I said was that tax-evasion is not stealing, not that it is ethical or moral to do so. And the government services you mention, Anton, are not paid for by the federal government nor is their value all that obvious, nor is it clear that Hovind entered willingly and voluntarily into any kind of relationship with the taxing authority seeking to take his money.

Whether it is ethical to evade paying taxes obviously depends on what the government does with the money, whether the government has a moral right to impose and enforce its rules, which in turn depends on how it came to power, and so on and on. I am sure Hovind will give you a good argument along these lines.

But stealing it is not.

Comment #157057

Posted by LazyDay on January 22, 2007 1:58 PM (e)

Eric Hovind wrote:

I have been working for my dad all my life. He has taught me everything from how to ride a bike to how to build a house.

Pssst…Eric, don’t forget to get a building permit first.

Comment #157058

Posted by Raging Bee on January 22, 2007 2:08 PM (e)

Carol blithered:

And the government services you mention, Anton, are not paid for by the federal government nor is their value all that obvious, nor is it clear that Hovind entered willingly and voluntarily into any kind of relationship with the taxing authority seeking to take his money.

By choosing to remain a citizen and resident of the USA, and to make use of the taxpayer-funded benefits thereof, when he could have found another country to which to emigrate, Hovind (like myself) did indeed “willingly and voluntarily” agree to be bound by all the laws and obligations of US citizenship, including the obligation to contribute his share (as determined by US law) of the costs of maintaining the well-ordered liberty from which Hovind benefited. (That fair trial he got before being sent to the slammer cost money too; so do those elections that he and his kind are using to try to enshrine their know-nothing agenda into law.)

Comment #157065

Posted by Peter on January 22, 2007 2:50 PM (e)

Just to join in the chorus of the obvious. That Shelley the Republican link is crazy. She says that Jesus is the founder of the United States. Oh Christian Dominionists. When will you please stop trying to rewrite history?

Comment #157072

Posted by Mike on January 22, 2007 3:29 PM (e)

“Looky, conservative sites are already calling him a “martyr”. Wow: http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2007/01/21/k……”

Uh, guys, Shelley the Republican is a satire site, not a conservative site at all. Of course, the lunacy many ‘conservatives’ spout makes it hard to tell at times.

Comment #157088

Posted by Flint on January 22, 2007 4:09 PM (e)

Of course, the lunacy many ‘conservatives’ spout makes it hard to tell at times.

I notice there has been a battle being waged on Wikipedia over mention of Poe’s Law. I didn’t know that law, so I did some digging. For those as ignorant as I was: Poe’s law says that no parody of a creationist can be so extreme that an actual creationist can’t exceed it.

Comment #157097

Posted by cronk on January 22, 2007 4:47 PM (e)

Carol, state and local government agencies do receive federal funding, directly and indirectly.

Comment #157101

Posted by Peter on January 22, 2007 4:50 PM (e)

“Looky, conservative sites are already calling him a “martyr”. Wow: http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2007/01/21/k………”

I’ll consider myself clowned.

Comment #157113

Posted by stevaroni on January 22, 2007 5:43 PM (e)

Peter wrote…

I’ll consider myself clowned.

Me too. Admittedly, I scanned it quite quickly, but still, I didn’t catch that it was a spoof on the first read. It was probably the complete lack of irony in the comments that got me (see Poe’s law, above).

Comment #157116

Posted by carol clouser on January 22, 2007 6:29 PM (e)

Stevaroni,

Regarding those “tricky” questions God will ask you and each of us on the day of reckoning and the legal advice you may need to answer them.

According to the Talmud (you know that 60-volume commentary on the ORIGINAL Hebrew bible by the ultimate experts on what it meant and the oral tradition that came with it) you will be asked only four basic questions.

They are (I am translating loosely from the Aramaic here):

(1) Have you conducted your affairs in good faith?

(2) Were you engaged in the raising of a family?

(3) Did you set aside time for study?

(4) Did you help prepare the world for the messianic era (by fostering peace and reconciliation, I assume)?

Are you ready, Stravoni? Need a lawyer?

Comment #157117

Posted by carol clouser on January 22, 2007 6:36 PM (e)

Stevaroni,

I apologize for mispelling your name at the end there. No insult intended.

Comment #157118

Posted by GuyeFaux on January 22, 2007 6:39 PM (e)

(1) Have you conducted your affairs in good faith?

(2) Were you engaged in the raising of a family?

(3) Did you set aside time for study?

(4) Did you help prepare the world for the messianic era (by fostering peace and reconciliation, I assume)?

Hm… 1 out of 4;
Just as I thought. I’m f—ed.

Comment #157149

Posted by Anton Mates on January 23, 2007 12:14 AM (e)

Carol Clouser wrote:

What I said was that tax-evasion is not stealing, not that it is ethical or moral to do so. And the government services you mention, Anton, are not paid for by the federal government

Aside from what Bee said, Hovind also didn’t pay his building permit fees and property taxes.

nor is their value all that obvious,

The value of Hovind’s entire contribution to humanity is non-obvious, but I’d still be stealing if I absconded with a truckload of his tapes and Dino Adventure Land props.

Besides, Hovind evidently thought their value was obvious, because he used them. He chose to call the police; he chose to bring a court case against the IRS.

nor is it clear that Hovind entered willingly and voluntarily into any kind of relationship with the taxing authority seeking to take his money.

I never volunteered to live in a place where I can’t stab people anytime I feel like it. Life’s unfair that way.

Comment #157202

Posted by stevaroni on January 23, 2007 9:32 AM (e)

I never volunteered to live in a place where I can’t stab people anytime I feel like it. Life’s unfair that way.

What about mimes? You could probably stab mimes.

Yes, technically it’s against the law, but really, would anyone ever convict you?

Comment #157204

Posted by Raging Bee on January 23, 2007 9:54 AM (e)

Carol asked, and I’ll answer, FWIW:

According to the Talmud (you know that 60-volume commentary on the ORIGINAL Hebrew bible by the ultimate experts on what it meant and the oral tradition that came with it) you will be asked only four basic questions.

They are (I am translating loosely from the Aramaic here):

(1) Have you conducted your affairs in good faith? Mostly yes.

(2) Were you engaged in the raising of a family? Mostly no, but at least I took reasonable measures to avoid having kids I couldn’t afford to raise in keeping with my responsibilities. Also, I did some babysiting as a teenager. Does that count?

(3) Did you set aside time for study? Enough to see through the most bogus claims of apocalyptic religions that have nothing better to look forward to than the destruction of their God’s creation.

(4) Did you help prepare the world for the messianic era (by fostering peace and reconciliation, I assume)?
You “ASSUME?!” Didn’t the “ultimate experts on what it meant” explain this matter in any detail? That seems a rather important thing to understand, doesn’t it? So, when will the “ultimate experts on what it meant” come back to clarify this? Hopefully messianic era can wait until we get this clarification…

Comment #157214

Posted by stevaroni on January 23, 2007 10:34 AM (e)

Carol wrote…

According to the Talmud (you know that 60-volume commentary on the ORIGINAL Hebrew bible by the ultimate experts on what it meant and the oral tradition that came with it) you will be asked only four basic questions.

Carol;

My lucky day! Since my parents brought me up as one of the mumbling-in-latin faction instead of the wandering-in-the-desert clan, I get to use the new, annotated volume II version of the Good Book.

Apparently, all I have to do is “Do unto others as I would have them do unto me”, which is, frankly, a whole lot easier than preparing an entire world for the messianic era.

(Although, with our current political leadership in Washington, that admittedly may be closer than it appears)

Comment #157227

Posted by Keith Douglas on January 23, 2007 1:12 PM (e)

Steviepinhead: On the contrary, he is charging far more than they are worth, considering that they contain negative knowledge.

Comment #157263

Posted by Carol Clouser on January 23, 2007 4:37 PM (e)

Stevaroni wrote:

“Apparently, all I have to do is “Do unto others as I would have them do unto me”, which is, frankly, a whole lot easier than preparing an entire world for the messianic era.”

My understanding is that you will be asked the same questions that I will be asked. And the principle of “do unto others…” doesn’t quite cut it. You might prefer that others leave you alone in time of need. You may even wish to kill yourself. Do you do unto others in the same manner?

Preparing “an entire world” sounds like a tall order, which is why the Talmudists continued: Rabbi Tarfon said, “The day is short, the task is abundant, the laborers are lazy, the wage is great, and the master of the house is insistent. You are not required to complete the task, yet you are not free to withdraw from it.”

Comment #157266

Posted by Carol Clouser on January 23, 2007 4:49 PM (e)

Stevaroni,

Or you might find this more to your liking:

Rabbi Akiva said, “Everything is given on collateral and a net is spread over all the living. The shop is open, the merchant extends credit, the ledger is open, the hand writes, and whoever wishes to borrow, let him come and borrow. The collectors make their rounds constantly, every day, and collect payment from the borrower whether he realizes it or not, for they have proof to rely upon and the judgement is truthful. And everything is prepared for the banquet.”

Is there a need for elaboration or commentary?

Comment #157274

Posted by GuyeFaux on January 23, 2007 5:20 PM (e)

And the principle of “do unto others…” doesn’t quite cut it. You might prefer that others leave you alone in time of need. You may even wish to kill yourself. Do you do unto others in the same manner?

You need to read it again:

Do unto others as I would have them do unto me

Because this has nothing to do with wanting to kill yourself. And it seems perfectly reasonable to leave someone in time of their need if they wanted to be left alone.

Comment #157297

Posted by chance on January 23, 2007 8:20 PM (e)

One wonders at what legal advice Hovind was receiving, surly his lawyers would have told him it was folly to challenge the IRS in such a way.

Naive as he was to the expectations of the IRS, I can’t help feeling sorry for him, 10 years is an awfully long time. Too long IMO.

Comment #157300

Posted by Anton Mates on January 23, 2007 8:36 PM (e)

stevaroni wrote:

Carol;

My lucky day! Since my parents brought me up as one of the mumbling-in-latin faction instead of the wandering-in-the-desert clan, I get to use the new, annotated volume II version of the Good Book.

Apparently, all I have to do is “Do unto others as I would have them do unto me”, which is, frankly, a whole lot easier than preparing an entire world for the messianic era.

Selling all you have and giving the money to the poor’s pretty tough, though. Thank God we have role models like Kent Hovind to show us how it’s done.

Comment #157303

Posted by fnxtr on January 23, 2007 8:38 PM (e)

Wheee! Another religious war!

The passage in Matthew 7:12 (NIV)says: “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets“.

My italics, obviously.

Let the bickering begin.

I’ll start. It’s a good idea. But’s it no more heaven-sent than any other early philosophy.

Comment #157304

Posted by Anton Mates on January 23, 2007 8:41 PM (e)

chance wrote:

One wonders at what legal advice Hovind was receiving, surly his lawyers would have told him it was folly to challenge the IRS in such a way.

Why, he was taking advice from Glen Stoll,, who got shut down by the government a couple of years ago for advising lots of people to do the same thing.

Comment #157574

Posted by yea on January 25, 2007 12:03 PM (e)

To all of you who think this is funny, you are sick individuals, 10 years in prison ? while murderers like O.J. are walking around free. This is not a violent criminal, he didn’t even steal, the money was given to him, He really should be tax exempt under our laws, not even needing a 501c3, and this money never was the private bankers collection agency’s in the first place.
The only thing he should have done is pay payroll taxes.
Just my 2 cents.

Comment #157580

Posted by Raging Bee on January 25, 2007 12:25 PM (e)

To quote from the movie “Grosse Point Blank:”

“Ten Years. Ten years! tenyears. TEN! YEARS!! TEN years! Ten YEARS!!…”

Comment #157584

Posted by GuyeFaux on January 25, 2007 12:56 PM (e)

The only thing he should have done is pay payroll taxes.

You’re being modest: 58 counts and 640,000 USD of stolen cash.

Comment #158059

Posted by MpM on January 27, 2007 5:23 PM (e)

Yea said
“ The only thing he should have done is pay payroll taxes.
Just my 2 cents.”

Look… if you listen to the phone recordings, he is comparing the IRS to the Nazis, accusing everyone else of breaking the law…

I would agree with you if he had been found guilty of tucking a few bucks away for a rainy day. I’d even entertain the thought of a shorter sentence that matched his penitence.

He is still conning others from his jail cell. While on one hand, he claims everyone else is corrupt, on the other he tells his son to start moving finances around to hide money.

Did he steal? Yea he did. He stole from me. I pay my taxes. I pay for the roads he drives on, the public transportation his workers took to get to work, etc. He stole from me, and now he has to pay the price.