PZ Myers posted Entry 2528 on August 19, 2006 06:51 PM.
Trackback URL: http://www.pandasthumb.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.fcgi/2523

The Raw Story reveals that D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries will be a hosting a program that blames Darwin for Hitler. Orac has going to have to resurrect an entire zombie Wehrmacht to handle this one: look at the unholy corps of creationists he has assembled to defend this outrageous claim:

The one-hour program features Ann Coulter, author of Godless; Richard Weikart, author of From Darwin to Hitler; Lee Strobel, author of The Case for a Creator; Jonathan Wells, author of Icons of Evolution; Phillip Johnson, author of Darwin on Trial; Michael Behe, author of Darwin’s Black Box; Ian Taylor, author of In the Minds of Men, and Francis Collins, Director of the Human Genome Project.

Continue reading Et tu, Francis Collins?" (on Pharyngula)

Commenters are responsible for the content of comments. The opinions expressed in articles, linked materials, and comments are not necessarily those of PandasThumb.org. See our full disclaimer.

Comment #120848

Posted by steve s on August 19, 2006 6:57 PM (e)

Francis is certainly keeping some great company these days, idn’t he?

Comment #120852

Posted by PZ Myers on August 19, 2006 7:07 PM (e)

Yes. I was a bit disgusted with his illogical rationalizations before, but there were a lot of people saying he was good for the cause of biology even so…it really doesn’t matter what he says on this program, though. It’s enough that he’s lending his reputation to this cacophony of charlatans.

Comment #120853

Posted by hiero5ant on August 19, 2006 7:16 PM (e)

Can we please, please, please dispense with the notion that “if we could just show them that evolution is only incompatible with literalism they’ll become spiritually sophisticated science endorsers” now?

Comment #120860

Posted by ag on August 19, 2006 7:36 PM (e)

Shame on Collins. The guy has sold his soul to the bunch of sharlatans and incompoops. Well, it was known before that education makes a fool an educated fool. Apparently a successful science research makes a fool a scientifically prominent fool. Perhaps he’ll get the Discovery Institute fellow status along with Berlinski, Gilder, and Dembski. What a company!

Comment #120861

Posted by Sir_Toejam on August 19, 2006 7:46 PM (e)

There are realy only two successful ways to deal with the kind of cognitive dissonance Collins was dealing with as he observed the death of his parents, and those just represent dropping on or the other worldview that is in conflict.

typically, it’s the irrational worldview that is dumped.

In collin’s case, it was the reverse.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2220484,00.html

The evangelicals eased his pain. that was the decider for his strained brain.

I actually pity the man, but I’m sure he feels much better about having chosen a specific worldview, such as it is.

Comment #120862

Posted by Sir_Toejam on August 19, 2006 7:50 PM (e)

…do note, however, that all of his claims fall under the “theistic evolutionist” category, so if others in the evangelical movement claim he is an IDer, or a creationist of any other sort, they are lying.

Comment #120882

Posted by Karen on August 19, 2006 10:48 PM (e)

It sure is hard to believe that Francis Collins is willing to be seen with these jokers. Collins is very much like Ken Miller– a man of faith who is also a serious mainstream scientist. We’ll see what happens.

Comment #120912

Posted by tacitus on August 20, 2006 1:59 AM (e)

This show will simply be an updated regurgitation of empty creationist rhetoric. Kennedy has been trotting out all his old anti-evolution TV shows over the past month.

You can sample the claptrap (e.g. Kennedy has the “evolutionist” members of the Supreme Court saying “Nein” to prayer in the classroom…) at this link:

http://www.coralridge.org/BroadcastArchives.asp?cat=crh&daterange=7/30/2006-8/31/2006

Broadcasts dated from 7/30 onwards are all diatribes against evolution. Be warned, it’s all really dreadful stuff.

Comment #120936

Posted by normdoering on August 20, 2006 4:51 AM (e)

PZ, if you’d like to hit harder on that Darwin caused Hitler BS, check out this website:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

It will take you to evidence of Hitler’s Christianity. It’s a page of more links that will get you quotes like this:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…. And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people…. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.”
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

This page has photos:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

See Catholic bishops and priests giving the Nazi salute. I think they’re in the public domain.

Comment #120937

Posted by Nick (Matzke) on August 20, 2006 5:33 AM (e)

Those who attack Collins are badly on the wrong track. We all know the fundamentalists are desperate for any scrap of authority and credibility, and so they would say what they did about Collins even if he got on camera and said, “ID is junk science and bad theology, also.”

As Mike Hopkins said on Pharyngula,

Do we yet know if Collins even knew that he was being interviewed for fundamentalist tripe? It not a good idea to start to condemn Collins until we know what his side of the story is. Heck do we even know if Collins really was interviewed by the fundies as opposed to them buying some recycled some previous interview with context edited out?

There are several possibilities like this. He could also be on there as the token evolutionist, to provide the “opposing view” to Ken Ham etc. We don’t know if this show will have its own Collins interview, or if it was recycled. If he was interviewed, he might not have known it was for Coral Ridge Ministries. Even if he did, he might not know what Coral Ridge Ministries is – I was only vaguely aware of it until recently, and I am a serious nerd in these matters. A busy scientist wouldn’t necessarily know. You can’t just assume the worst, particularly when Collins is a noted biologist and has publicly stated his disagreement with creationism/ID on several occasions.

Why certain folks go out of their way to stomp on their allies, I don’t understand. If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away. The only way the creation/evolution issue will ever be resolved is if the evangelicals make their peace with evolution. People like Francis Collins are the only ones that can accomplish that.

Comment #120945

Posted by Corkscrew on August 20, 2006 6:31 AM (e)

Nick: it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference what Collins’ role in this production is - given the medium, whatever he says can and will be used against evolution.

So he’s either a schmuck or a Brutus. Either is possible; neither is laudable.

Comment #120952

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on August 20, 2006 7:57 AM (e)

Syntax Error: mismatched tag 'kwickxml'

Comment #120953

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on August 20, 2006 8:00 AM (e)

PZ, if you’d like to hit harder on that Darwin caused Hitler BS, check out this website:

And this:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/nazis.htm

Also available at the Talk.Reason archives:

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Hitler.cfm

And while everyone is at the Talk.Reason archives, check out the e-book version of my Creation “Science” Debunked website, available at:

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/deception.cfm

Contains a history of fundamentalism in the US, a history of ID/creationism, and detailed looks at Arkansas, Louisiana, Kansas, Ohio and Dover.

Comment #120958

Posted by Michael Roberts on August 20, 2006 8:19 AM (e)

Apart from Nick Matze’s comments, most comments have simply been ill-informed bullshit reflecting more ignorance and prejudice than any creationists site. I shall go on one of them to get to relative sanity.

You can no more argue with these “posters” than Hovind.

Comment #120962

Posted by hiero5ant on August 20, 2006 8:22 AM (e)

This is one of those cases where I really would love to discover my foot in my mouth. If every time the microphone is in front of his face, he delivers a merciless, unquoteminable harangue against ID, I’ll be happy to eat my words. Or crow. Or my foot, or however that metaphor is supposed to play out.

But honestly, what insight does the head of the HGP think he has to contribute to a “Darwin = Hitler LOL” hatefest? What rock could he have been hiding under to not understand that Johnathan Wells and Ann Coulter don’t just “take a different view on scriptural literalism”, but that they are incorrigibly dishonest hucksters who don’t deserve any benefit of any doubt?

I’m actually a bit of a connoiseur of hate radio (last time I went back to Hamilton County, TN where I grew up, there were three Christianist stations on the FM dial alone), and I’ve been listening to D. James Kennedy for longer than I’ve followed ID. The man is Kent Hovind in a cheap tuxedo, and his politics are Ahmansonian. Maybe – just maybe, but I doubt it – Collins is even more of a political naif than his “frozen waterfall trinity” homily suggests, and he simply doesn’t understand what he’s doing. But agreeing to come on a show with that subject, with those guests, hosted by that organization does not make it more than vanishingly unlikely that he will produce a victory for science education.

With allies like these, who needs enemies?

Comment #120965

Posted by Sir_Toejam on August 20, 2006 8:34 AM (e)

People like Francis Collins are the only ones that can accomplish that.

it’s quite simple Nick. If you are right that Collins can play a role in this, then we would expect him to work to STOP the kind of idiocy represented by Kennedy’s darwin/naziism program, yes?

Instead, so far we see him listed as a contributor for whatever reason.

If he is the man to put a stop to this shite, more power to him.

time will tell, but he only has a week left to do something about it.

Comment #120969

Posted by PZ Myers on August 20, 2006 8:48 AM (e)

Nick, if Collins repudiates the show and announces that his name was used to endorse it without his understanding of the content of the program or without his permission, I’ll happily give him the thumbs up and apologize for assuming he had sold out.

Otherwise, though, I do not consider Collins an ally in any way. My goal is to see a rational world where people respect reason and knowledge–and I’ve read Collins’ book. He is not on my side. We will not ‘win’ this war to see evolution accepted if the only way is to get it married off to dogma and authoritarianism and irrationality; the end doesn’t justify the means.

Comment #120970

Posted by Andrea Bottaro on August 20, 2006 8:57 AM (e)

Bah - can we just wait to see what Collins’s contribution to the program was? Maybe - just maybe - he was the only voice of sanity in that bleating flock of lunatics.

Sure, even in that case perhaps it would have been better for him not to participate, but that’s his prerogative, and a debatable point reasonable people may disagree about. Also, Dawkins got snookered by Creationist documentarists once, perhaps this is the case with Collins. Who knows.

Regardless, there’s almost always a Dr. Duh (emeritus) from Whatever State willing to participate in these things, and some Duhs may in fact be better than others.

Comment #120972

Posted by Peter Henderson on August 20, 2006 9:03 AM (e)

For those in the UK the Coral Ridge hour is broadcast on TBN Europe,Sky Digital channel 763, on Saturday afternoons at 3pm. TBN is free to air and doesn’t require a subscription or viewing card.

Last Saturday (yesterday) he featured this story:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2589

There was quite a long interview with Caroline Crocker. They also spoke to this guy and mentioned the IDEA club at the George Mason University:

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1343

Comment #120979

Posted by Gerard Harbison on August 20, 2006 9:19 AM (e)

Francis Collins seems to be simply a naive, almost childishly innocent individual, about everything except his own narrow research area. I’ve noted elsewhere he seems to be completely unfamiliar with the major ideas in modern population genetics. His political naivety is not unusual: we all know lots of scientists who are utterly out of touch with the world outside their laboratory. What is a little suprising is that such an individual was chosen for such a public post, where politics is surely a major part of the job.

I’ve no doubt whatever he said will be cut out of context, misused, and distorted. But it really will serve him right; there’s no excuse for someone in his position not to be media savvy.

Comment #120985

Posted by k.e. on August 20, 2006 9:38 AM (e)

I’ve no doubt whatever he said will be cut out of context, misused, and distorted. But it really will serve him right; there’s no excuse for someone in his position not to be media savvy.

Unless he is savy enough to find a new source of funds….just an idea.

Comment #121086

Posted by Al Moritz on August 20, 2006 4:05 PM (e)

Nick Matzke wrote with great common sense:

Why certain folks go out of their way to stomp on their allies, I don’t understand. If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away. The only way the creation/evolution issue will ever be resolved is if the evangelicals make their peace with evolution. People like Francis Collins are the only ones that can accomplish that.

In his reply, PZ Myers wrote:

Otherwise, though, I do not consider Collins an ally in any way. My goal is to see a rational world where people respect reason and knowledge—and I’ve read Collins’ book. He is not on my side. We will not ‘win’ this war to see evolution accepted if the only way is to get it married off to dogma and authoritarianism and irrationality; the end doesn’t justify the means.

PZ Myers: Why do you seem to think that believers in God cannot be contributing to “a rational world where people respect reason and knowledge”? Cannot a scientist be both a believer in God on one hand, and on the other hand not just enthusiastically embrace modern science to its full extent (including evolution), but even be great in his field, like apparently Collins is? Why only one or the other – religion or science?

I am with Nick on this one:
“If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away.”

Comment #121097

Posted by PZ Myers on August 20, 2006 5:42 PM (e)

Al Moritz, Nick Matzke wrote:

“If you think that getting rid of religion is the solution to the creation/evolution wars, I think you are simply delusional. Religion is not going to go away.”

I don’t think crime is going to ever go away, either – it’s part of the human condition. Do you suggest that we stop resisting it, too?

Comment #121099

Posted by Al Moritz on August 20, 2006 6:14 PM (e)

PZ Myers,

well, you did not exactly answer my question, did you?

(Your reply though was kind of interesting, I must say - if witty, funny or just plain annoying depends on the way you look at it.)

Comment #121100

Posted by PZ Myers on August 20, 2006 6:30 PM (e)

I believe someone can be both religious and a great scientist, because human beings are messy creatures who can hold many mutually contradictory ideas in their heads at once. That does not mean, though, that religiosity acquires some virtue by proximity to reason – it’s still bogus.

And, unfortunately, I think those scientist/communicators who are religious are very, very poor role models, precisely because of the kind of argument you just made. It tempts people to grant the respect they give to the ‘scientist’ part of the person to the ‘irrational noodlewit’ part that believes in invisible phantasms with super powers. As is so clearly on display in Francis Collins, the skills and abilities that allow him to succeed in science are suspended whenever he babbles about religion.

Comment #121113

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on August 20, 2006 9:01 PM (e)

(sigh) Here we go again ……

Comment #121120

Posted by The Christensen Squad on August 20, 2006 9:47 PM (e)

Well, as you probably know by now, Collins was not aware that he was being used in the video.

So I guess that makes most of you liars, doesn’t it?

As for Darwin, he was a racist ass, but is always excused as being a product of his time.

Well then, the idea of the survival of the fittest (introduced by Spencer but ACCEPTED by Darwin in later issues of the Origin) was frankly a product of 19th century British Victorian racist elitism.

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories.

No doubt about it.

Comment #121123

Posted by Sir_Toejam on August 20, 2006 10:12 PM (e)

The Christensen Squad
??

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories.

No doubt about it.

a perfect example of how somebody can read an entire thread and completely miss every bit of fact and evidence presented in it.

congratulations.

oh, btw, do you often refer to yourself in the plural, or is that something common to those suffering your apparent mental defects?

just curious.

Comment #121124

Posted by B. Spitzer on August 20, 2006 10:21 PM (e)

So, PZ, I’m curious: How do you know that Collins hasn’t thought as carefully and thoroughly about the relationship between science and religion as you have?

You assume that he can only reconcile the two by suspending his sense of reason. But just because you can’t fit science and religion together hardly means that nobody else can.

This is when your atheism comes across as arrogance: the same species of arrogance we get from fundamentalists who can’t understand that there are points of view other than their own. There are more things in heaven and earth– and more ways of relating the two– than are dreamt of in our philosophy.

Comment #121138

Posted by normdoering on August 20, 2006 11:35 PM (e)

B. Spitzer asked:

So, PZ, I’m curious: How do you know that Collins hasn’t thought as carefully and thoroughly about the relationship between science and religion as you have?

Apparently PZ been reading up on him:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/06/francis_im_very_disappointed_i.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/francis_collins_doofus_for_the.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/harris_on_collins.php

Comment #121162

Posted by Anonymous_Coward on August 21, 2006 2:27 AM (e)

This is when your atheism comes across as arrogance: the same species of arrogance we get from fundamentalists who can’t understand that there are points of view other than their own.

Personally, I think there’s a difference between “not being able to understand that there are other points of view” and “having evaluated other points of view and find them wrong”.

I don’t understand why people can’t tell the difference.

Comment #121228

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on August 21, 2006 7:23 AM (e)

And yep, Hitler derived ispiration from Darwin in the formation of his elitist racist theories.

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/nazis.htm

Comment #121313

Posted by J. Biggs on August 21, 2006 1:20 PM (e)

Am I the only one that has noticed similarities in the posts of Christensen, JB and Wing|ess. Isn’t it against the rules to post under multiple names?

If you are doing this Christensen, I suggest you stop. If you are not I sincerely apologize for the insinuation.

Comment #121318

Posted by Janus on August 21, 2006 1:41 PM (e)

Am I the only one that has noticed similarities in the posts of Christensen, JB and Wing|ess. Isn’t it against the rules to post under multiple names?

I have no idea whether those are all the same user or not, but I post under multiple names myself for reasons I don’t care to discuss. I don’t see it as a problem unless it is somehow abused; either to use someone else’s name or to give the false impression of support for an idea in sock puppet fashion.

Are you sure you would rather discuss that than the content of their posts?

Comment #121359

Posted by Anton Mates on August 21, 2006 5:20 PM (e)

The Christensen Squad wrote:

As for Darwin, he was a racist ass, but is always excused as being a product of his time.

Uh, no, he’s respected for being vastly ahead of his time.

By the way, a negro lived in Edinburgh, who had travelled with Waterton and gained his livelihood by stuffing birds, which he did excellently; he gave me lessons for payment, and I used often to sit with him, for he was a very pleasant and intelligent man.

Great God how I should like to see the greatest curse on Earth Slavery abolished.

For instance, early in the voyage at Bahia in Brazil he defended and praised slavery, which I abominated, and told me that he had just visited a great slave-owner, who had called up many of his slaves and asked them whether they were happy, and whether they wished to be free, and all answered “No.” I then asked him, perhaps with a sneer, whether he thought that the answers of slaves in the presence of their master was worth anything. This made him excessively angry, and he said that as I doubted his word, we could not live any longer together.

The Indians are now so terrified that they offer no resistance in a body, but each flies, neglecting even his wife and children; but when overtaken, like wild animals, they fight against any number to the last moment….Every one here is fully convinced that this is the most just war, because it is against barbarians. Who would believe in this age that such atrocities could be committed in a Christian civilized country?

This posta was commanded by a negro lieutenant, born in Africa: to his credit be it said, there was not a ranche between the Colorado and Buenos Ayres in nearly such neat order as his….I did not anywhere meet a more civil and obliging man than this negro; it was therefore the more painful to see that he would not sit down and eat with us.

I was pleased with nothing so much as with the inhabitants. There is a mildness in the expression of their countenances which at once banishes the idea of a savage; and intelligence which shows that they are advancing in civilization….It has been remarked, that it requires little habit to make a dark skin more pleasing and natural to the eye of an European than his own colour. A white man bathing by the side of a Tahitian, was like a plant bleached by the gardener’s art compared with a fine dark green one growing vigorously in the open fields.

Comment #124365

Posted by Siarlys Jenkins on August 30, 2006 11:27 AM (e)

None of you seem to have read Francis Collins’s book, i.e. his own words. Everyone is talking about the bad company he keeps. The book is coherent, rational, well-written, entirely true to scientific facts and method. He does not pretend that there is “scientific proof” for his faith. He merely says that he finds them entirely compatible. You don’t have to share his faith to accept his scienctific research, you don’t have to accept his science to share his faith. But the man certainly is no fool.

Comment #141779

Posted by P.J. on October 27, 2006 5:14 PM (e)

Ann Coulter? Good grief. Coulter isn’t a conservative, Ann Coulter is crazy.