Matt Young posted Entry 2130 on March 21, 2006 12:49 PM.
Trackback URL: http://www.pandasthumb.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.fcgi/2125

An elementary school teacher in Bennett, Colorado, has been suspended for showing her class a 12-min portion of the opera Faust, according to reports in the Rocky Mountain News, the Denver Post, and the Los Angeles Times.

Specifically, Tresa Waggoner, a first-year teacher, showed her elementary-school class a section of a video that used sock puppets to animate the opera. The video featured the soprano Joan Sutherland, whom many consider the greatest soprano of her generation. Ms. Waggoner found the 30-year-old videotape in the school library. She had invited singers from Opera Colorado to perform at the school and used the video to prepare her students. The performance was canceled, and no reason was given, according to a spokesperson from Opera Colorado.

Parents accused Ms. Waggoner of devil worship and, in at least one instance, of not being a Christian, as if not being a Christian were somehow reprehensible. In fact, Ms. Waggoner, herself an opera singer, describes herself as a Christian and has two Christian recordings among her credentials.

Ms. Waggoner, the mother of two children, was further accused of being a lesbian aiming to promote homosexuality. Ms. Wagonner says she was - get ready for this - explaining “trouser roles” in opera. (In Faust , a young man in love with Marguerite is played by a soprano.) Other parents complained that the video deals with abortion; Ms. Waggoner says flatly that they lied.

Some parents thought that the material was inappropriate for small children and were mollified when they were assured (by whom is unclear) that a similar situation would not arise. But other parents were not so easily satisfied.

At least part of the motivation for the attack may be Ms. Waggoner’s earlier refusal to include Christmas songs at the winter concert. The Rocky Mountain News quotes Ms. Waggoner as saying, “I told her we couldn’t sing them because public schools didn’t want to offend people of other religions, including Jewish people, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

The mayor of Bennett resigned over the incident and said that the town has a “mean streak” that she can no longer tolerate. Earlier, when the Mormon church built a facility nearby, letters to the editor of the local newspaper questioned whether Mormons were truly Christians. The town is roughly evenly split politically between long-time residents and newer residents who live in a subdivision, and a recent town board meeting required police intervention to ensure the safety of the city planner.

Ms. Waggoner was suspended from her job with pay. Most parents supported her at a hearing of the school board, but she has not been reinstated. According to the latest report I read, she was looking for a new job.

It is against this backdrop that we struggle to keep creationism out of the public schools.

Commenters are responsible for the content of comments. The opinions expressed in articles, linked materials, and comments are not necessarily those of PandasThumb.org. See our full disclaimer.

Comment #88191

Posted by k.e. on March 21, 2006 1:17 PM (e)

Time to get the Bhurkas out, the theocratic Christo-Taliban regime is here, next they will be banning kite flying and music in hair salons.

Comment #88193

Posted by Tony on March 21, 2006 1:24 PM (e)

Are there links available to the original news reports? If so, I’d really like to read what’s been reported and any follow-up stories.

If this is true as reported, it greatly disturbs me. I’d rather not see this teacher cut and run, but to get some sound legal advise as to what her options are.

Comment #88196

Posted by Inoculated Mind on March 21, 2006 1:40 PM (e)

This just in: a teacher has been ousted by his christian community for reading a book promoting infanticide, genocide, rape, incest, and genital mutilation. But then they reinstated him when they learned that the book was the bible. J/K of course.

The rocky mountain news picks up some interesting stuff from time to time.

Comment #88197

Posted by Grey Wolf on March 21, 2006 1:41 PM (e)

Tim asked:
“Are there links available to the original news reports?”

Try “teacher faust colorado bennett” at news.google.com

Comment #88198

Posted by Grey Wolf on March 21, 2006 1:42 PM (e)

Sorry, Tony asked that, not “Tim”

GW

Comment #88200

Posted by Kevin Johnston on March 21, 2006 1:45 PM (e)

Web search for “rocky mountain news teacher faust”, maybe?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4486164,00.html

The story as written here is even worse. The school administration did not appear to stand up for her at all.

If you leave “faust” off the search terms, you’ll find stories about another Colorado teacher put on suspension for criticizing Bush. He was reinstated last week. His case is different, and not as sympathetci, but it makes interesting reading as well. Letters on both incidents appear here:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_4522348,00.html

Comment #88202

Posted by k.e. on March 21, 2006 1:47 PM (e)

Now this sounds familiar; from Wiki.

The name of “Faust” has since become attached to any number of legendary tales about a charlatan alchemist (some claim “astrologer and necromancer”), whose pride, vanity, and vile hucksterism would inevitably lead to his doom. Similarly, the adjective “faustian” has come to denote any acts or constellations that involve human hubris leading to doom.

Cervantes’ “Don Quixote” and ‘Count’ William Dembski
Conrad’s ‘Kurt’ in ‘The Heart of Darkness’ and Nabokov’s ‘Humbert Humbert’ in ‘Lolita’

All these stories are about the creation of private myth, literally a private reality which is actually ‘Hell on earth’ for personal gain, that the anti-hero knows is a hell and only on impeding death does the anti-hero repent.

Cervantes, Goethe, Conrad and Nabokov have their anti-hero neatly follow a ‘Christian’ death.
In the end, God saves Faust by bringing about his purification and redemption

See what happens when you only read the Bible.

Comment #88203

Posted by rampancy on March 21, 2006 1:49 PM (e)

OMFG. That’s all I have to say. I can *maybe* understand what might get Fundamentalist Christians might get upset about stuff like Toni Morrison and Catcher in the Rye, but opera?

Just when I think the bigoted fanaticism of Fundamentalist Christians couldn’t get any more over the top, it does.

Comment #88206

Posted by BWE on March 21, 2006 1:53 PM (e)

Christians, can’t live with em, can’t feed em to the lions anymore.

Comment #88208

Posted by jonboy on March 21, 2006 1:56 PM (e)

What is it with Colorado? it must be the altitude and lack of oxygen to the brain.
Faust is a passionate drama,about unconscionable choices, and heartbreaking consequences - the ultimate battle of good and evil. One of the world’s most popular operas, it is filled with touching melodies, rousing choruses, and unforgettable characters.
How could that be even slightly detrimental to a students education?

Comment #88209

Posted by Matt Young on March 21, 2006 1:57 PM (e)

Sorry, I usually include references, but URL’s to newspaper articles are sometimes transient, so I omitted references. Here’s the best I can do.

RM News:
Tillie Fong, Teacher who showed ‘Faust’ video awaits her fate, Feb 22, 2006.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4486164,00.html

Deborah Frazier, Despite support, educator sees no future in Bennett, Mar 10, 2006.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4529857,00.html

Denver Post:
Kyle MacMillan, Dramatic tension bedeviling Bennett, Mar 21, 2006.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3540512

The Post also had a column that I didn’t use as source material: Ed Quillen, Another tragedy of Dr. Faustus, Feb 19, 2006. Quillen commends Bennett for at least having a school music program, then discusses Faust and scary children’s fables.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3517622

LA Times:
Search their site for Arts Notes, by Chris Pasles, Feb 5 and Mar 19, 2006. You will have to pay for those. I got one by e-mail and another from an unauthorized Web site.

Comment #88213

Posted by frank howden on March 21, 2006 2:11 PM (e)

At least since the beginning of the modern ERA, the English speaking world has had its Luddites. They have waxed and waned over time. In our time they have gained enough ascendancy to elect one of their own to the White House. Nevertheless, just as the 19th Century English man
wanted cheaper cloth, modern Americans will not go long without the benefits of modern science – especially the benefits on modern medicine. Perhaps “informed consent” forms should include an acknowledgment that the treatment/drug/whatever was developed under the assumptions of Darwinian biology.

Comment #88216

Posted by Ben on March 21, 2006 2:18 PM (e)

That’s f***ing pathetic, is all.

Comment #88220

Posted by Tony on March 21, 2006 2:27 PM (e)

Thank you to all for the news links. What I’m reading is really disturbing. Obviously, these narrow-minded screwball fundamentalists haven’t heard about Article I in the Bill of Rights.

I hope that Ms. Waggonner takes this school board to court for wrongful termination and religious persecution. Last time I checked, burning at the stake was unconstitutional.

Comment #88226

Posted by Tony on March 21, 2006 2:46 PM (e)

For whatever it’s worth, I found this website. It has some news links, although some of the information is dated. It also has the email addresses of the school administrator and school board.

http://www.savetresa.org/

The ignorance and intolerance of the religious right is astounding. Don’t these people read anything else besides their bibles?

Comment #88228

Posted by Karen on March 21, 2006 2:48 PM (e)

What is it with Colorado? it must be the altitude and lack of oxygen to the brain.
Faust is a passionate drama,about unconscionable choices, and heartbreaking consequences - the ultimate battle of good and evil. One of the world’s most popular operas, it is filled with touching melodies, rousing choruses, and unforgettable characters.
How could that be even slightly detrimental to a students education?

You are right, and no thinking religious person would object to Faust. If anything, Faust is about falling into sin, repentance and forgiveness. Here’s the synopsis from the Metropolitan Opera. Check out the last act! Were it not for this opera’s artistic merit, the teacher could conceivably be charged with teaching religion!

Those parents are uncultivated idiots and their brains must have the electrical activity of walnuts. This was a wonderful opportunity for the children to be introduced to great music, in an age where public school budgets for the arts are usually slashed. The parents should be ashamed of themselves.

Comment #88229

Posted by Garry on March 21, 2006 2:49 PM (e)

It is a stupid situation. I heard an interview with Tresa Waggoner’s husband the other day on the local Boulder radio (Jay Marvin show on AM760). He’s got a website (www.savetresa.org)that has a lot more links to news articles and other info.

Comment #88235

Posted by normdoering on March 21, 2006 2:59 PM (e)

Oh my Gawd! Danny Miller is right, this country turning into, a Margaret Atwood novel!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danny-miller/janet-jacksons-breast-is_b_17611.html

Comment #88236

Posted by DrJohn on March 21, 2006 3:01 PM (e)

Just what is it with these pig ignorant folk? Even worse, why do we listen to them at all? They should simply be told they are wrong, and be done with it.

Comment #88242

Posted by Keanus on March 21, 2006 3:29 PM (e)

Wow!! I suppose the Theocrats better ban Handel’s “Messiah” and a few other traditional oratorios. Some of the solos were written for castrati and we wouldn’t want that getting mixed up with our “pure” religion. And about those “trousers” roles…. Boy, real history is almost as bad as the bible.

Comment #88243

Posted by Keanus on March 21, 2006 3:30 PM (e)

Wow!! I suppose the theocrats better ban Handel’s “Messiah” and a few other traditional oratorios. Some of the solos were written for castrati and they wouldn’t want that getting mixed up with their “pure” religion. And about those “trousers” roles…. Boy, real history is almost as bad as the bible.

Comment #88246

Posted by BWE on March 21, 2006 3:43 PM (e)

All good fiction is modeled after reality in some way.

Comment #88247

Posted by Julie Stahlhut on March 21, 2006 3:50 PM (e)

Yup, it gets worse. The teacher was pressured to write a letter of apology to all of her students’ parents for the transgression of teaching elementary school students about the venerable art of opera. Although she’s still being paid her salary, she has not yet been allowed back into the classroom.

These people are absolutely nuts, and by this I mean no disrespect to people who are suffering from mental illness. (Mental illness isn’t “nuts” – it’s illness. Filing complaints about a teacher because your kids learned that men and women sometimes played each other’s roles on stage is just plain nuckin’ futs.) Besides, I keep hearing complaints from the wingnuts that we’re too hung up on cultural diversity to value the classics of “Western civilization”. What in Faust’s rec room do these people think opera is?

Was this country always this collectively stupid? For the life of me, I don’t understand any more why anyone would want to be a teacher and subject herself to this kind of crap. And, no matter how teachers try to counter this in the classroom, the kids are being taught at home that education is an inferior option to remaining ignorant, superstitious, and provincial.

Public education was supposed to be our way out of this morass. Un-buggin-believable.

Comment #88250

Posted by Adam on March 21, 2006 3:56 PM (e)

Excluding Christimas songs from a winter concert is idiotic, but so is suspending someone for showing a video of Faust.

We would all be a whole lot better off if we just lightened up and grew thicker skin. Life is too short to have to constantly worry about offending this or that group.

Comment #88251

Posted by steve s on March 21, 2006 4:01 PM (e)

Was this country always this collectively stupid?

It probably used to be worse.

Comment #88252

Posted by thefinn on March 21, 2006 4:04 PM (e)

Matt Young wrote:

Other parents complained that the video deals with abortion.

How on earth does one illustrate the concept of abortion using sock puppets? I’m fairly certain the plot of the opera doesn’t deal with abortion at all, so any “mention” of the subject would be in mime, so to speak. With sock puppets.

Comment #88253

Posted by Keanus on March 21, 2006 4:08 PM (e)

Sorry about the double post. I have no idea how it happened. Now, a further comment.

The superintendent sounds just like many other adminstrators I met through forty years of calling on schools (as a science textbook editor and publisher). For many the most important goal is to keep the school quiet and calm. Any teacher who tolerates boisterousness or does semething that upsets just one parent is a candidate for dismissal. Too many school boards don’t like waves of any kind. So the teacher with initiative, like Tresa, either gets harassed or canned for doing nothing more than being a good teacher.

Comment #88257

Posted by Tony on March 21, 2006 4:17 PM (e)

Was this country always this collectively stupid?

It probably used to be worse.

Yes, it used to be a lot more worse. Never underestimate what unabashed christian fundamentalism is capable of doing, even in this country. Here’s something from the not-so-distant past.

http://www.auindy.org/good.html

Comment #88258

Posted by Moses on March 21, 2006 4:21 PM (e)

Those people are pathetic. Just plain, stupid, beyond hope, pathetic.

Comment #88260

Posted by BWE on March 21, 2006 4:28 PM (e)

We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.

– H.L. Mencken

http://www.teambio.org/2006/03/quote-of-the-day-33106/

Comment #88261

Posted by IAMB, FCD on March 21, 2006 4:33 PM (e)

Those parents are uncultivated idiots and their brains must have the electrical activity of walnuts.

Hey man, don’t insult walnuts like that.

Seems many fundie parents have got it into their heads somwhere that the mere mention of evil or the devil is the same as teaching evil or devil worship. I have a fundie-in-law that will readily tell anyone that Harry Potter and LOTR are devil worship simply because they deal with evil and sorcery.

They always seem to miss the redemption parts completely.

Comment #88263

Posted by steve s on March 21, 2006 4:44 PM (e)

I have a fundie-in-law that will readily tell anyone that Harry Potter and LOTR are devil worship simply because they deal with evil and sorcery.

While walking with my brother in a Winn-Dixie in the deep south, as a teen, an old lady came up to us and told him he should be wearing a shirt with a peace symbol on it, because a peace symbol was an upside down cross with the arms broken downward. I told her that the letter ‘o’ was just a cross all broken up and rearranged into a circle. Man did she look confused.

Comment #88265

Posted by Jim Ramsey on March 21, 2006 4:45 PM (e)

A quote from Lazurus Long:

“Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. “

Comment #88266

Posted by steve s on March 21, 2006 4:47 PM (e)

mibad. obviously I mean’t ‘shouldn’t be wearing’

Comment #88270

Posted by Kevin from nyc on March 21, 2006 5:01 PM (e)

“Excluding Christimas songs from a winter concert is idiotic”

Yes well then I would require some Mega-Death songs to also be included, with some Marilyn Manson added for effect.

Comment #88274

Posted by wamba on March 21, 2006 5:12 PM (e)

How on earth does one illustrate the concept of abortion using sock puppets?

It involves knitting needles, but let’s not get off-topic.

Comment #88275

Posted by Jeremy on March 21, 2006 5:12 PM (e)

Mr. Young, it seems you have received the highest compliment a PT contributor can receive: You’ve been insulted and attacked by DaveScot.

DaveScot at UD wrote:

These are the people we are up against. I have absolutely had it with people like Matt Young and their concerted effort to censor traditional American culture and values and replace it with their own new age crap. Get out of my country, Young. Right now. Pack your trash and g-e-t o-u-t.

Amazing. Don’t you feel honored Matt?

Comment #88276

Posted by Matt Young on March 21, 2006 5:14 PM (e)

I think it was a mistake to exclude Christmas songs from the winter concert. They are part of the culture and can reasonably be included in a concert, as long as the concert is not wholly devoted to Christmas songs and does not become, in effect, a religious celebration. For example, a music teacher can use the opportunity to introduce Christmas music from other cultures, while excluding songs that might be perceived as “too religious.” That is not to say that Ms. Waggoner should have been persecuted for excluding the songs, only that she could have been more sensitive to the wishes of the community.

Comment #88280

Posted by Roxi on March 21, 2006 5:19 PM (e)

what the fuck?????

good mother of god. Children in Detroit are rationed toilet paper and are lucky if they hear music other then what eminates from the cars that pass the schools and we are punishing someone for exposing children to creativity?

good god..

Comment #88283

Posted by Nat Whilk on March 21, 2006 5:21 PM (e)

At least part of the motivation for the attack may be Ms. Waggoner’s earlier refusal to include Christmas songs at the winter concert. The Rocky Mountain News quotes Ms. Waggoner as saying, “I told her we couldn’t sing them because public schools didn’t want to offend people of other religions, including Jewish people, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

Mormons sing Christmas songs.

Comment #88284

Posted by Caledonian on March 21, 2006 5:23 PM (e)

(Mental illness isn’t “nuts” — it’s illness.)

Actually, it’s neither, but that’s another story and will be debated another day.

People are stupid, and proud of it.

Comment #88286

Posted by Caledonian on March 21, 2006 5:26 PM (e)

Has this teacher been put on a scale yet? After all, if she weighs as much as a duck, she’s made of wood, and therefore a cross-dressing Satanist lesbian.

It’s not even a metaphor anymore – this is so much like a historical witchhunt it’s scary.

Comment #88302

Posted by Carol Clouser on March 21, 2006 6:08 PM (e)

Combining this story with the news item this week that an individual is being tried and faces the death penalty in Afghanistan, a supposed democratic ally of ours, for violating the law prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity, and I shake my head and say to myself were it not for Judaism I would be an atheist just to spite these intolerant and therefore un-Godly religions. No creed this intolerant can be an instrument of God. It is not possible.

Comment #88303

Posted by Mark Decker on March 21, 2006 6:11 PM (e)

I simply can’t understand this at all. I’ve sung in Faust, and for the life of me I can’t imagine what ANYONE would find objectionable in it. I would think any Christian parent would be giddy that their child was being exposed to Faust rather than South Park. After all, Faust has an overwhelmingly Christian perspective.

And DaveScot’s idiotic response is similarly hard to fathom. Did he just say that a 19th-century opera was “new age?” What planet is he on? Oh right, that one with the supercalifragilisticexpialadoshus designer.

Comment #88306

Posted by Sunny Wong on March 21, 2006 6:18 PM (e)

I would love to ask DaveScot since when is a classic opera like Faust considered “New Age”…

From Wikipedia:
Faust was so popular in the United States that in New York the opera season began with a performance of it every year for several decades in the late 19th century, a fact to which Edith Wharton makes great reference in her Pulitzer Prize winning novel The Age of Innocence.

Maybe somebody should take a trip to an opera house?

Perhaps it was idiotic of the high school teacher to keep Christmas songs out of school concerts (I sang plenty of Christmas songs in chorus back in high school), but using an excuse like showing Faust to fire a teacher is anti-intellectualism at its worst. (or is it because they’re too stupid to notice the themes of repentence and redemption?)

Comment #88307

Posted by Bill Gascoyne on March 21, 2006 6:19 PM (e)

My $.02: The most obscene statement I have ever heard came from a fundamentalist Christian. She was interviewed during a local news report on some teapot tempest over banning from the school library such blasphemous books as “Huckleberry Finn” and “Alice in Wonderland,” and this woman actually said, “We have to put bounds on our children’s imaginations.”

I wanted to ask if she also planned to bind their arms and legs so that their bodies would grow up as stunted as their minds.

Comment #88308

Posted by Mark Decker on March 21, 2006 6:22 PM (e)

Wait, I can see DaveScot’s defense of this travesty coming: She got what she deserved because she had excluded the Christmas carols from a holiday concert. So she deserved to have people lie about both her and Faust to serve that ends? Very nice.

Comment #88313

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 21, 2006 6:41 PM (e)

Yes well then I would require some Mega-Death songs to also be included

Dude, that’s “Megadeth”. Along with “Metallica”, they have been my favorite band for a long long long time.

Yes, to all the fundies out there, I listen to heavy metal. The heavier the better.

Get used to it. (shrug)

Comment #88317

Posted by Jim Harrison on March 21, 2006 6:46 PM (e)

If I can omit the usual polemics for a moment, I have considerable sympathy for traditional folks who are upset by the threat the outside world poses to their way of life. To college educated people it may be bizarre to regard Faust as a newfangled attempt to promote devil worship. It requires a serious exercise of negative capabilty to put yourself in the place of people threatened on all sides by a world they simply don’t understand. These people are like an ice cube trying not to melt in hot water by sheer will power.

Comment #88318

Posted by steve s on March 21, 2006 6:49 PM (e)

Matt Young puts up a post about how we’re up against hysterical overreaction, and what happens? The idiots at Uncommonly Dense hysterically overreact.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/936

Who knew Matt Young was a new ager?

Comment #88326

Posted by Matt Young on March 21, 2006 7:26 PM (e)

I didn’t mind when Mr. Scot ordered me out of “his” country, but to call me a new ager was beyond the pale.

Comment #88328

Posted by Steviepinhead on March 21, 2006 7:32 PM (e)

You’re darn tootin’!

Us old agers need to stick together…

(Anyway, aren’t New Agers some kind of subsect of YECs?)

Comment #88331

Posted by Mark Decker on March 21, 2006 8:00 PM (e)

Kudos to poster tinabrewer at UD for investigating the matter more fully and pointing out that DaveScot, as par for the course, is completely full of it. Like many of the parents cited in the case, he blatantly misrepresented the situation with his ludicrous spin. Will tinabrewer now find herself censored for pointing out the site’s chief jackass is a liar?

Comment #88335

Posted by GvlGeologist, FCD on March 21, 2006 8:23 PM (e)

With all due respect to Jim Harrison, who said:

“I have considerable sympathy for traditional folks who are upset by the threat the outside world poses to their way of life. To college educated people it may be bizarre to regard Faust as a newfangled attempt to promote devil worship.”

According to the Denver Post article (http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3540512), the average income in this area is $59k. This is not a group of uneducated people. They should know better. Most of them probably are college educated. These are people who are deliberately pulling the wool over their own eyes. Now they want to pull it over everyone else’s eyes as well.

Comment #88337

Posted by Sir_Toejam on March 21, 2006 8:26 PM (e)

Dave Scot screamed at Matt Young:

Get out of my country, Young. Right now. Pack your trash and g-e-t o-u-t.

why is it that i see this reaction so commonly from the desperate and inane? Why is it that 99% of the time, the reactionaries who make these offers fall on the same political and philosophical side of the fence? Why do they all assume it’s “their country”?

I never see any scientists asking his ilk to leave.

What’s more interesting is the reaction you get when you tell them to put their money where their mouth is.

I once saw a conservative pundit for the wall street journal literally offer money for liberals to move to Canada.

So i point blank sent him a request to cover the cost of a plane ticket (with extra baggage) to canada. even offered to make it public.

nothing but silence.

In fact, I have had fun confronting folks who make these kind of hysterical idiotic statements.

If they won’t fork over cash to back their request, i show them the christianexodus.org site and tell them that perhaps it would be more efficient for them to start their own sub-culture.

Then we can build a fence around that state and call it one big mental assylum.

Comment #88338

Posted by steve s on March 21, 2006 8:27 PM (e)

Will tinabrewer now find herself censored for pointing out the site’s chief jackass is a liar?

Probably. We’re watching it at After the Bar Closes. I’ve saved a copy of the UD page because it’s likely to be deleted.

Comment #88339

Posted by Monado on March 21, 2006 8:28 PM (e)

Abortion gets inserted into this topic the same way that the Catholic Children’s Aid of Hamilton “discovered” a huge group of fetus-eating Satanists several years ago–by overheated questioning of children who scuffle their toes and say, “Yeah, I guess so.” Fortunately for us all, the police found absolutely no physical evidence, no missing people, etc. etc. to indicate that it had ever existed.

Comment #88344

Posted by Bob Keller on March 21, 2006 8:58 PM (e)

What folks here fail to mention or even recognize in their profane expressions of shock and disapproval is that Ms. Waggoner, because of this censure, will have a very difficult time being an effective teacher in a public school system in the future. She will find herself thinking twice before presenting anything to in a classroom that is in the least bit “controversial”. Most likely, she will err on the side of caution, especially if her family needs the money.

To my way of thinking, that is the real tragedy in this story.

Bob

Comment #88350

Posted by Julie Stahlhut on March 21, 2006 9:24 PM (e)

Before giving Ms. Waggoner hell for not including Christmas carols in the winter concert, it’s worth considering that had she either included Christian pieces or tried to be even more inclusive by adding non-Christian religious music, she might have had to field complaints as well.

One essayist (it may have been Garrison Keillor) recently pointed out that people who keep their holiday cheer secular in public situations aren’t usually trying to be anti-religious; they’re simply trying to be nice. Fox News may have put a “War on Christmas” spin on “Happy Holidays” cards, but when you’re greeting groups of your students, business associates, or casual acquaintances, it’s actually polite to assume nothing about their religious beliefs ahead of time, and that’s even before one considers the role of the Establishment Clause in a government-funded workplace.

Comment #88352

Posted by Tukla in Iowa on March 21, 2006 9:29 PM (e)

no thinking religious person would object to Faust

Unfortunately, the non-thinking religious people are also the loudest.

Comment #88353

Posted by PvM on March 21, 2006 9:33 PM (e)

She showed a puppet video of Faust by Joan Sutherland which introduces children to opera released in 1973.

Description

-World-famous soprano Joan Sutherland and her magical puppet friends present opera programs designed for the whole family. Presented with fun and humor, designed to make adults and children comfortable with this area of western culture. Spotlights two operas: Faust and Rigoletto”.

Comment #88354

Posted by moakley on March 21, 2006 9:40 PM (e)

There can be no thinking outside the book.

Comment #88355

Posted by Lucy on March 21, 2006 9:42 PM (e)

No deletion; Dave Scott has responded to tinabrewer, saying that Waggoner had to go because it’s inappropriate to show ‘dark operas’ to six-year olds. What was that book about infanticide, rape, genocide, incest, genital mutilation, capital punishment and the end of the world called again?

Comment #88356

Posted by k.e. on March 21, 2006 9:42 PM (e)

Bob says:

She will find herself thinking twice before presenting anything to in a classroom that is in the least bit “controversial”. Most likely, she will err on the side of caution, especially if her family needs the money.

To my way of thinking, that is the real tragedy in this story.

NOT JUST HER _EVERONE_ ELSE around who is watching.

Keanus pointed out earlier.


The superintendent sounds just like many other adminstrators I met through forty years of calling on schools (as a science textbook editor and publisher). For many the most important goal is to keep the school quiet and calm. Any teacher who tolerates boisterousness or does semething that upsets just one parent is a candidate for dismissal. Too many school boards don’t like waves of any kind. So the teacher with initiative, like Tresa, either gets harassed or canned for doing nothing more than being a good teacher.

Theocrazy your breathing it.

Comment #88357

Posted by AD on March 21, 2006 9:44 PM (e)

One essayist (it may have been Garrison Keillor) recently pointed out that people who keep their holiday cheer secular in public situations aren’t usually trying to be anti-religious; they’re simply trying to be nice. Fox News may have put a “War on Christmas” spin on “Happy Holidays” cards, but when you’re greeting groups of your students, business associates, or casual acquaintances, it’s actually polite to assume nothing about their religious beliefs ahead of time, and that’s even before one considers the role of the Establishment Clause in a government-funded workplace.

And, should you happen to work in an international industry or even deal on an occasional basis with non-christians, probably profitable.

Or, as the converse, how thrilled do you think one of our chest-pounding ultra-Christocrat pundits would be to recieve a Christmas card with the star of David on it?

Not everyone in the world is a Christian.

Comment #88358

Posted by the pro from dover on March 21, 2006 9:56 PM (e)

One can divide the state of Colorado into 3 zones. The blue-state capital of Boulder and includes Denver, Fort Collins and the mountain resorts. The Mormon zone is the Grand Valley capital of Grand Junction and paradoxically includes our vineyards and mountain biking areas. The red state is the rest headquartered in Colorado Springs and ruled by an iron fundamentalist fist. One needs only to go a few miles in any direction of Denver to get there. For all of you auslanders who think that Mormons (correctly called the Church of Jesus Christ) are scary religious cultists with many wives and scores of uneducated children, you are mistaken. It is the protestant fudamentalists that have caused this commotion and fear in these communities. Interestingly enuf solidly in the red state territtory is the small town of Trinidad which is the sex change capital of the USA.

Comment #88359

Posted by Pete Dunkelberg on March 21, 2006 9:58 PM (e)

No responsible commentator would suggest the USA is sinking toward theocracy.
Or would he?

Comment #88362

Posted by Bartholomew on March 21, 2006 10:28 PM (e)

Mike Babi, the school-board member most responsible for persecuting Waggoner, builds scientific labs for a living:

Business: CPM LABFAB Labfab builds laboratories worldwide. We build interior and exterior, temporary and permanent labs at the fraction of the cost of remodels…

Website: cpminc.com
Contact Person: Mike Babi

I checked the email, it’s the same guy. Perhaps those of you who work in the sciences might like to remember that the next time you have to get the builders in…

Comment #88366

Posted by Mark Decker on March 21, 2006 10:59 PM (e)

“No deletion; Dave Scott has responded to tinabrewer, saying that Waggoner had to go because it’s inappropriate to show ‘dark operas’ to six-year olds. What was that book about infanticide, rape, genocide, incest, genital mutilation, capital punishment and the end of the world called again?”

“Dark Opera?” FAUST? More proof that the bloviating DaveScot doesn’t have the foggiest idea. It shows he has never seen Faust and likely knows nothing about it.

Gounod’s Faust was roundly panned by the serious Germans because it was, to them, “Faust lite.” It removed all the richness of Goethe’s masterpiece and presented a tuneful, naive theatrical experience. To be frank, it’s a lot of gloss, tuneful as it may be.

More to the point, it isn’t remotely “dark.” The ending is uplifting. The devil is reduced to a comic, snarky charicature who sings a “laughing” song and really has no menace whatsoever.

Don’t get me wrong, it has glorious music–as I’ve said, I’ve actually been in it. But a “dark opera” it is not. No doubt DaveScot would consider Beethoven’s Ode to Joy to be depressing.

Comment #88368

Posted by Mark Decker on March 21, 2006 11:11 PM (e)

To further my point about DS’s mendacity, on the UD page he is corrected–rightly–that the Faust shown to them was not a play, but an opera. Unable to admit the slightest error on his part, DS insists it is a play and that there is a “musical adaptation of it.” That’s not the point, of course, since what he had said was they had been shown the play, which is flat-out wrong, as they had been shown a PUPPETIZED version of the opera that was specifically designed for kids.

Anyone who has seen Dame Sutherland’s wonderful and classic series would know that these are as appropriate for this age of kids as WB cartoons are (which contain far more violence).

I remember being frightened as a kid by the cartoon where Sylvester and Elmer Fudd spend the night in a “haunted” house (really it was just the mice). Why oh why didn’t my parents right angry letters to the TV networks???!!!

Comment #88370

Posted by RBH on March 21, 2006 11:38 PM (e)

DaveScot, Dembski’s anointed intellectual alter ego, wrote

Get out of my country, Young. Right now.

Whose country?? That totally pisses me off. I still carry my dogtags more than 45 years after they were issued to me in boot camp, and it’s not because it’s DaveScot’s country to say who should stay or go. It’s my country, too, Daveyboy, and it’s not (yet) a theocracy.

RBH

Comment #88371

Posted by PvM on March 21, 2006 11:42 PM (e)

Look ignorance has never stopped DS from sticking his foot in his mouth. His response shows that ID is really about religion and especially Christianity.
The real issue is that some want to impose their religious faith onto others in this country and that those who oppose this are given the opportunity ‘to leave’. What a wonderful display of Christian charity.

Not that there was much of any doubt but DS helps strenghten this
observation.

Let’s ignore DS, his contributions to both science and religion are mostly vacuous.
But let’s not forget DS’s behavior, and wonder how Dembski can condone such a behavior.

Comment #88373

Posted by Caledonian on March 21, 2006 11:50 PM (e)

No creed this intolerant can be an instrument of God. It is not possible.

You are in no position to make statements about what is and is not possible for God, particularly when you idolize Judaism. (“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”)

Comment #88376

Posted by Karen on March 22, 2006 12:16 AM (e)

Another funny thing about this situation is that Charles Gounod, the composer of Faust, also wrote some fine sacred music! You can check some of it out at the Choral Public Domain Library.

One of his settings of the Ave Maria was composed as a kind of extra melody to Bach’s well-known Prelude no. 1 from the Well-Tempered Clavichord. The Bach-Gounod Ave Maria remains one of the most beloved settings of that text ever composed. It’s also popular with violinists as a transcription.

I guess that fundies do violence to more than just science!

Comment #88377

Posted by gwangung on March 22, 2006 12:36 AM (e)

What’s so depressing is that a theocratic minority is able to impose their will on the majority through threats of intimidation and unfounded accusation.

American Taliban, indeed.

Comment #88380

Posted by Dark Matter on March 22, 2006 1:39 AM (e)

How long before the madness spreads to classroom readings of “The Tempest”
and “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”?

Comment #88381

Posted by Bob O'H on March 22, 2006 1:41 AM (e)

No doubt DaveScot would consider Beethoven’s Ode to Joy to be depressing.

Well, Joy’s not too happy: she hasn’t even been payed a single Schiller.

Bob

Comment #88382

Posted by Morgan-LynnLamberth on March 22, 2006 2:48 AM (e)

Caledonia,bravo!Everybody,read “THE SECRET ORIGINS OF THE BIBLE”TOSEE WHY THAT BOOK OF FABLES IS NOT WHAT MOST THINK IT IS.iS rev.LINNIE A REAL PERSON ?

Comment #88390

Posted by TheCult on March 22, 2006 6:33 AM (e)

Let’s see…um, it’s okay to tell 1st graders about Jesus being nailed to a cross and that you will be tortured in hell forever if you’re not a christian, but god forbid if they see a few minutes of an opera which I bet you contained nothing scarier then what they do on halloween.

When I read what Dave Scot wrote it just confirmed my belief that he is a very disturbed person. If I were Dembksi I would toss his ass out of his blog, not just remove his control over the blog, but out, gone, goodbye. Dembski is trying to present ID as a purely science based ideology without influence from religious or political motivations, but he puts a deranged nazi right wing psychotic as his representative? C’mon Bill, I hear Dave Scot has some bucks, if you’re kissin his ass for money you should ask yourself if it’s worth it, you’re losing whatever respect you had by having a gigantic cretin douchebag as your calling card.

I support ID, But people like Dave Scot make me want to disassociate myself from whomever supports his nazi ass. I know I am not alone. Dembski is risking a lot of peoples goodwill by keeping a clearly hateful demonic person as his maitre’d. Just because someone believes in ID doesn’t change them from being a lowlife into a good person. C’mon Bill, if it aint the bucks he’s throwing your way why is that crap bag in charge of your blog?

Comment #88392

Posted by Lou FCD on March 22, 2006 7:01 AM (e)

AD wrote:

Not everyone in the world is a Christian.

Yes, well that is the point, isn’t it? These folks are working hard to correct that “problem”.

Resistance is futile.

Comment #88393

Posted by wad of id on March 22, 2006 7:05 AM (e)

DaveScot wrote:

The firing of one for making inappropriate decisions regarding what six year old children can and cannot be exposed to isn’t the end of the world.

Yes, we’ll remember that the next time we start giving the boot to fundie teachers who tell young children that life is “intelligently designed”.

Comment #88394

Posted by Ed Darrell on March 22, 2006 7:26 AM (e)

What is it with Colorado? it must be the altitude and lack of oxygen to the brain.

Bennett, Colorado, is southeast of Denver – on the plains, flat, no mountains. It’s between the mountains and the Bible Belt.

Consider, however, that we rarely hear such news out of Aspen, or Vail, or Estes Park …

Comment #88396

Posted by inge on March 22, 2006 7:44 AM (e)

I guess it would be too charitable to assume that the parents had mixed the opera up with the play, probably the Goethe version? Which, among other things, was inspired by an infanticide case, and has the devil as the only sympathetic character?

Nah, thought so.

Comment #88398

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 22, 2006 7:53 AM (e)

Ah well, fundies have been happily burning books for hundreds of years.

Alas, though, burning books inevitably leads to burning people.

Comment #88401

Posted by Carol Clouser on March 22, 2006 8:20 AM (e)

Caledonian,

The record speaks for itself, very loudly and clearly.

Comment #88407

Posted by Renier on March 22, 2006 8:45 AM (e)

TheCult, you should join the little clan at ATBC.

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=4420fe1506e12e1b;act=ST;f=14;t=1274;st=1620

Comment #88411

Posted by steve s on March 22, 2006 9:07 AM (e)

The Cult, over at AtBC we’ve been watching Uncommonly Dense for months. You are not the first ID supporter to criticise Davetard. He’s banned several ID supporters. Read through the thread at AtBC and you will find his dumb contradictions and misantropy well documented.

I expected Davetard to be dismissed months ago. But I’ve concluded that Dembski’s already come to grips with the failure of ID, and now is just going through the motions to pull in the royalties and speaking fees. Putting Dave in charge reduces his workload. I don’t think you would put complete amateurs like Dave Springer, Doug Moran, etc in charge of anything if you were seriously trying to build a scientific movement. You only put them in charge when you realize that your audience can’t tell the difference between science, and technical sounding mumbo jumbo.

Comment #88414

Posted by steve s on March 22, 2006 9:32 AM (e)

FYI Matt, here’s Davetard responding to a question on Uncommonly Dense. the bold text is Davetard:

14. Do you believe America is more your country than Young’s? If so, howcome?

That was hyperbole designed to get the loony left stirred up enough to comment. That said I do believe that many people feel no patriotism and don’t really belong in the U.S. reaping the benefit of a country formed and defended with the blood and treasure of patriots. Young probably doesn’t fit that unpatriotic category but I want to see him explain why he doesn’t fit.

Comment #88419

Posted by AD on March 22, 2006 9:53 AM (e)

Yes, well that is the point, isn’t it? These folks are working hard to correct that “problem”.

And look how well that worked out in the Crusades…

That was hyperbole designed to get the loony left stirred up enough to comment. That said I do believe that many people feel no patriotism and don’t really belong in the U.S. reaping the benefit of a country formed and defended with the blood and treasure of patriots. Young probably doesn’t fit that unpatriotic category but I want to see him explain why he doesn’t fit.

As someone who is decidedly not a member of the left, allow me to state unequivocally that I’m sure a large portion of the right also laughs hysterically at the idiotic nonsense coming out of people like Davetard.

I showed this little snippet to my venerable grandfather; he is a lifelong republican, he served on a submarine in the pacific during WWII, and if you even mention the words “Russia” or “Communism” around him, he’ll give you an hour long lecture on the benefits of capitalism and democracy.

He laughed out loud when he read Dave’s post.

Jab at the left indeed.

Comment #88426

Posted by Karl Lembke on March 22, 2006 10:50 AM (e)

What’s really ironic is that the third commandment, “Do not use God’s name in vain” applies here. It’s a prohibition on using God’s name for silly or petty reasons. This includes making proclamations that make God look stupid, petty, or evil, whether it’s this mess in Colorado, the mess in Dover, beheading captives in the name of Allah, or Pat Robertson sounding off about Ariel Sharon’s stroke.

According to Torah, this is the one sin God will not forgive.

Comment #88428

Posted by steve s on March 22, 2006 10:59 AM (e)

According to Torah, this is the one sin God will not forgive.

Probably Saddam wouldn’t have forgiven such insult either.

Comment #88431

Posted by Tyrannosaurus on March 22, 2006 11:18 AM (e)

The ignorance and intolerance of the religious right is astounding. Don’t these people read anything else besides their bibles?

If they read the bible at all!!!! May be they just read the parts of the old testament about wars, killings, rape, incest, etc and stop at that, hence their lust for blood and persecution (of others that is). Christ must be disgusted that his so-called children are such a screw up they did not heard his teachings and specially did not read any uplifting passages from the new testament. But, alas they and only they are been appointed to determine what a christian is. As sure as one day follows another, Jesus comes today would have been shout at YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN.
Way to go FUNDIES.

Comment #88432

Posted by Mike Rogers on March 22, 2006 11:33 AM (e)

What the hell is wrong with these people!? How could a fundamentalist Christian object to “Faust”? It’s ten times more about with their message (including its Christian authorship) than the “Chronicles of Narnia” ever was.

Comment #88433

Posted by Albion on March 22, 2006 11:45 AM (e)

““We’ve been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture.”

*sigh*

Comment #88434

Posted by Carol Clouser on March 22, 2006 11:48 AM (e)

Karl,

Nobody has mentioned God’s name here. “God” is not God’s name. And I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it.

Comment #88435

Posted by k.e. on March 22, 2006 11:48 AM (e)

The Cult said
C’mon Bill, if it aint the bucks he’s throwing your way why is that crap bag in charge of your blog?

er have you any idea about ‘Count’ William Dembski ?

He’s a right wing nut-job and Dave Scott Springer is his alter ego, 2 peas in a pod.
Nice of you to step up to Dembskis defense but you assign him with far too much moral credibility.
Go and have a look at the comments on UD on the beating up of the comparative religion Prof at K.U.
What is this thread about? Faust ?
A charlatan alchemist (some claim “astrologer and necromancer”), whose pride, vanity, and vile hucksterism makes him choose unconsionable morals all for personal gain. Just replace alchemist with mathematician/theologian flogging a dead canard, charging $200/hr and selling glossy pseudoscience quasi religious tracts and we have our own modern day Faust.
The story is as old as mankind, Faust is loosely based on an old Greek Myth, How many Faust’s are going to wake up, shower and shave tomorrow morning?

You may be sympathetic to the quasi religious implications of neoCreationism previously known as scientific creationism however the Money behind the DI comes from The Rushdooney Christian Reconstructionist Howard Ahmanson, a movement with a radical reactionary agenda and is purely political. The aims are NOT to promote creationism but to flout the law of the land by exclusively teaching their own religious opinions using science as a respectable figurative authority (actually scientism ) repeal the laws regarding the separation of church and state by hook or by crook. In short a theocracy.
Which is fine IF you agree with THEIR religious OPINION.

Is that what you want ?

Comment #88436

Posted by k.e. on March 22, 2006 11:56 AM (e)

oooooh Carol
Now I’m intrigued!!!
What IS god’s name ?
It’s OK no one is listening and writing it is not saying it so let’s have it.

Comment #88439

Posted by jmitch on March 22, 2006 12:05 PM (e)

The sad part about all this- it does not even appear that the “offended” parents even really care about the actual contenet of the video. (how many have bothered to watch the 12 minutes of the puppet show presented to kids?) This whole thing is 1 person (the wife of a BOE member) having a infantile temper tantrum over not being able to have her way (re the christmas carols at the recital) and convincing others to complain based entirely on her authority. The same kind of crap heard in testimony in the dover case - Did anyone READ or UNDERSTAND the “pandas” book - no they just followed what the chairman TOLD THEM TO BELIEVE - I bet its the same thing here - 1 ignorant vindictive “holier than thou” busybody and a bunch of SHEEP!

Comment #88441

Posted by jonboy on March 22, 2006 12:06 PM (e)

Carol, Let me try? In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named,it is represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (YHVH).
How did I do Carol?

Comment #88445

Posted by Flint on March 22, 2006 12:10 PM (e)

I’m inclined to agree that this has nothing to do with Faust at all, and everything to do with punishing this teacher for disallowing Christmas carols. She painted such a big target on herself that anything she did afterwards would be adequate reason for termination - and doing nothing would ALSO be adequate reason.

Comment #88446

Posted by BWE on March 22, 2006 12:10 PM (e)

I’m a celebrity.

#

I was just slumming through that thread and found this:

“Christians, can’t live with em, can’t feed em to the lions anymore.”

It’s comment #88206 by BWE. I should also say that I looked pretty hard to find where this person was somehow reprimanded for it but couldn’t see that it was even acknowledged. Over here, we have no tolerance for attacks like that directed toward any faith.

I can hardly believe you wrote this immediately following a comment about people being overly sensitive. Non sequitur. -ds

Comment by crandaddy — March 21, 2006 @ 8:03 pm

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/936
comment #20

I love my comment even more without its context. (For that I should be reprimanded.)
Thank you master, may I have another?

Somehow, I think that the fact that it was not acknowledged is saying something but I’m not sure what. Is that buzzing in my head bothering anyone else?

Comment #88449

Posted by AC on March 22, 2006 12:14 PM (e)

Kevin from nyc wrote:

Yes well then I would require some Mega-Death songs to also be included, with some Marilyn Manson added for effect.

Megadeth + Christmas = “Kill The King”. That would rock.

TheCult wrote:

Let’s see…um, it’s okay to tell 1st graders about Jesus being nailed to a cross and that you will be tortured in hell forever if you’re not a christian, but god forbid if they see a few minutes of an opera which I bet you contained nothing scarier then what they do on halloween.

I have a feeling these people aren’t big fans of Halloween either.

Comment #88452

Posted by Gordon on March 22, 2006 12:17 PM (e)

Holy Mackerel! After reading the absurd and demonic comments of Dave Scott at uncommon descent, is he Larry Fafarman brother?

Comment #88456

Posted by Julie Stahlhut on March 22, 2006 12:27 PM (e)

Karen wrote:

I guess that fundies do violence to more than just science!

Bingo.

It’s not just evolutionary biology, or even science as a whole, that’s impacted and hindered by fundamentalist ignorance. It’s also history, literature, the visual and performing arts, and the FSM only knows what else.

Comment #88469

Posted by AD on March 22, 2006 12:58 PM (e)

BWE,

I think most of us just ignored your comment. I suppose that’s the difference between here and UD.

Here, if you disagree or say something we don’t like, we let you talk. There, if you disagree or say something they don’t like, you must be punished.

If DS is reading this, I’d like to know why he complains about being muzzled and silenced in scientific quarters and yet is advocating doing that very thing to anyone who says something he does not like?

Comment #88477

Posted by TheCult on March 22, 2006 1:24 PM (e)

k.e wrote:

You may be sympathetic to the quasi religious implications of neoCreationism previously known as scientific creationism however the Money behind the DI comes from The Rushdooney Christian Reconstructionist Howard Ahmanson, a movement with a radical reactionary agenda and is purely political.

When you wrote DI I assume you meant ID? I know about the lunatics of the Christian Reconstructionist movement but I have never read anything about Rushdoony or the Chalcedon Foundation bankrolling the ID movement. Can you direct me towards some info on that? From what I have read it seems that support for ID comes from a variety of sources. I don’t believe that all of the working scientists and professors who support ID are doing so under the master plan of a covert or overt organization who is handing them money and their orders. I am sure there is some of that, but there is no single organizational structure which is financing all of the literature and support for ID. Mostly people do it because they believe in it. Christian Reconstructionism is to protestant christianity like Opus Dei is to catholicism in that it is a force in the Evangelical community and even in some mainline Protestant communities, but it is not a dominant force, albeit fanatical, cultish, and power hungry.

I don’t know Dembsky and I have never read anything of his which is anything like what you would expect to read on Free Republic, which is what Dave Scot sounds like. Dave Scot isn’t a Christian as far as I know. In the past he has given a hard time to christians on that blog. He’s just a Free Republic type of wingnut. Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh types, full o crap due to large egos, an almost divine sense of entitlement, and a total disregard for people except as things to be dominated and used.

“You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons.”

Comment #88484

Posted by Carol clouser on March 22, 2006 1:46 PM (e)

Jonboy,

All you have there are four Hebrew letters, the equivalent of four consonants in English without any vowels. That does not a name or even a word make. But you did great as far as it goes.

Do you know how the name is pronounced? Do you know what it means or represents?

I cannot and will not indicate here how to pronounce the name in order that I not be the cause of who knows how many lurkers out there trying it out in vain.

By the way, the name is never pronounced except once a year, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day, by the High Priest, the holiest person, when he enters the holy of holies, the holiest place on earth.

Comment #88486

Posted by argy stokes on March 22, 2006 2:10 PM (e)

TheCult,

DI = Discovery Institute, and is indeed bankrolled by Howard Ahmanson. I’m sure the good Rev Flank will roll by shortly to provide you with a link to his website, which will explain in detail.

Comment #88493

Posted by k.e. on March 22, 2006 2:39 PM (e)

Carol you tickle me with all that stuff.
Now I’m off to the stoning. Are you coming?

Comment #88495

Posted by jonboy on March 22, 2006 2:48 PM (e)

CAROL,I would assume (and I am probably wrong)that how you pronounce Gods name depends on the context?
Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (YHVH) is frequently shortened to Yah (Yod-Heh), Yahu or Yeho (Yod-Heh-Vav), especially when used in combination with names or phrases, as in Yehoshua (Joshua, meaning the LORD is Salvation), Eliyahu (Elijah, meaning my God is the LORD), and Halleluyah (praise the LORD).I think God can also be refered to as El Shaddai. There is another word but I’m not sure,I think it is in the sense of a military grouping or an organized array(tzvaot maybe?)
That’s it, I tried,so the next time you say” I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it”give me a break!!!!

Comment #88496

Posted by Jim Wynne on March 22, 2006 2:49 PM (e)

Carol wrote:

“God” is not God’s name.

For once, Carol is correct. An accurate translation of the scriptures (from the original Norwegian, of course) reveals that God’s real name (i.e., the name on His passport and driver’s licence) is Larry Farfromman.

Comment #88498

Posted by Henry J on March 22, 2006 2:56 PM (e)

Re “And I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it.”

His name is Art - as in “Our Father, Who Art in Heaven”. ;)

Comment #88502

Posted by Registered User on March 22, 2006 3:04 PM (e)

I don’t believe that all of the working scientists and professors who support ID are doing so under the master plan of a covert or overt organization who is handing them money and their orders.

You’re right – many ID supporters are simply clueless stubborn folks who, having nothing of use to share with their peers, choose instead to amuse themselves by pretending to hold “controversial” views.

Can you feel the excitement?

It must be noted, however, that the individuals who are the most visible propagandists on behalf of the notion that “intelligent design” should be taken seriously all seem to be affiliated in one way or another with the Discovery Institute. And most of them are not “working scientists.” They are discredited deadbeats, preachers, or mediocre attorneys (or a combination of these).

Comment #88503

Posted by Albion on March 22, 2006 3:06 PM (e)

The connection between the Chalcedon Institute and the Discovery Institute, via Howard Ahmanson, who was associated with the former when his Fieldstead Foundation started giving money to the latter, is documented by Paul Gross and Barbara Forrest in Creationism’s Trojan Horse. It’s also referred to in this article by Barbara Forrest:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/barbara_forrest/wedge.html

in the following extract:

“An ambitious strategy like the wedge would have been useless, however, without money. The CRSC has been generously funded by a number of benefactors, the most forthcoming of whom is Howard Ahmanson through his organization Fieldstead and Company. A rather ominous aspect of Ahmanson’s identity is his long-time membership (until 1995) on the board of the Christian reconstructionist Chalcedon Foundation, one of the most extreme right-wing fundamentalist organizations in the country.[33] Ahmanson’s contribution of crucial start-up funding is acknowledged in the Discovery Institute’s announcement of the CRSC’s establishment in its Summer 1996 Journal”

Comment #88504

Posted by Glen Davidson on March 22, 2006 3:18 PM (e)

Nobody has mentioned God’s name here.

You mean El, or Elohim, the ancient Canaanite god(s) first mentioned in Genesis?

“God” is not God’s name.

God has a name, and you know it?

And I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it.

I am quite sure that a great many here would know the tetragrammaton. What I’m not quite sure of is why you continually fail to adequately discuss the worship of El recorded in the Bible, or why you think that the all-powerful God has a name coming from the evolution of the Semitic languages.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm

Comment #88506

Posted by steve s on March 22, 2006 3:25 PM (e)

I know god’s real name, for I have seen it.

http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld/images/blog/05-05/jesus_license.jpg

Comment #88510

Posted by Faidon on March 22, 2006 3:37 PM (e)

This whole story would be hilariously funny, if it wasn’t for the fact that a teacher’s job is at stake. Now it’s just sad, and infuriating.
In my country, Greece, most people don’t think of themselves that much influenced by Western culture (yeah I know, go figure).
However, if that incident happened here, the protesting parents would serve as a mere display of widely-spread stupidity, and maybe as something for the media to feed off for a few days. And that would be that.

Wow… Just finished reading the comments over at UD. “Dark Faustian ideas”, eh? Out of a 12-minute sock puppet show?

…OK, I’ll buy it. After all, for Dave to be so sure about that, well, he must have used his search engi- his vast arsenal in knowledge and skills, let alone his IQ of 153, to conduct a thorough and credible research.

It’s also fun to see how he’s “updated” his post, using his all-too-familliar style to make it seem like it’s Mr.Young who actually apologized or took something back.

PS. “Who’s afraid of opera”? LOL! If only they had known…

Comment #88511

Posted by Ed Darrell on March 22, 2006 3:44 PM (e)

Wow… Just finished reading the comments over at UD. “Dark Faustian ideas”, eh?

Really. I mean, who would want to worship a deity who feels threatened by sock puppets? ID is not only bad science: It’s atrocious theology, too – not what they teach in better Christian seminaries.

Comment #88518

Posted by wheatdogg on March 22, 2006 4:27 PM (e)

k.e. –

Please do not compare Dembski to Don Quijote. You need to brush up on your literature. Quijote did not live in a private hell. In fact, he saw things in a better light than they actually were. His was not a tortured mind, just a confused one. He was not a huckster, nor was he out for personal gain. Alonso Quijana believed he was a knight living by a strict moral code. He was, of course, a little daft. Cervantes’ message was that even the daft can act more sane than “normal” people do.

Comparing Dembski to Quijote elevates Dembski. I’m not sure that was your intent.

Sorry for the grumpiness. I studied Cervantes for three years in college, so I’m touchy on the subject.

Comment #88519

Posted by Mark Isaak on March 22, 2006 4:30 PM (e)

One point I think needs to be stressed is that the people attacking Ms. Waggoner are anti-Christian. The community members accusing her of devil worship and such are anti-Christian. Her school administration is anti-Christian. DaveScott is anti-Christian. There are few people more virulently anti-Christian than a fundamentalist Christian. Oh, they may support one narrow interpreation of Christianity which has a couple dozen followers, but they are very much opposed to the rest of the Christians in the world. Many of them go so far as to refuse even to call other Christians Christians. I occasionally see Christian beliefs attacked by athiests; I see such attacks incessantly from other Christians.

So for those of you who think it is okay for the government to support religion, remember that any religion which the government supports has about a one in a million chance of being your religion.

Comment #88520

Posted by Bryson Brown on March 22, 2006 4:40 PM (e)

BWE: Your remark reminds me of one from an ancient historian (name forgotten, I’m afraid) who was asked, ‘What do you think of the Roman repression of Christianity?’ His reply: “Too little, too late.”

I wanted to add: Those making such a fuss about your crack need a perspective adjustment– there’s a big difference between trading a witty insult or two & firing someone for doing something creative and educational in their classroom.

Comment #88521

Posted by Ed Darrell on March 22, 2006 4:50 PM (e)

Yup, it gets worse. The teacher was pressured to write a letter of apology to all of her students’ parents for the transgression of teaching elementary school students about the venerable art of opera. Although she’s still being paid her salary, she has not yet been allowed back into the classroom.

For some odd reason that reminds me of the “confession” written by Cmdr. Lloyd Bucher and the crew of the U.S.S. Pueblo. North Korea announced Bucher had confessed to violating North Korea’s territorial waters, and they published the confession to prove it.

Bucher and the crew wrote that they had been sent on a mission by Adm. “Bull” Halsey (who had been dead a while at the time) to spy from a certain location – the lat/long they listed was just outside of Juneau, Alaska, as I recall. And after some other rambles of significant humor, they confessed to making a “slight penetration” of North Korean waters, but “penetration, no matter how slight, is sufficient to completion of the act.” Every military guy who read understood immediately what was up: The phrase was the UCMJ definition of rape, and it was clear that the North Koreans had been had by their own devices (I don’t recall whether this was before or after the crew had posed for a “propaganda” photograph to show how happy they were; to demonstrate, the crew had all given the “Hawaiian good luck” sign to the photographer. The photo ran around the world, but not in prudish U.S. newspapers).

If someone can create an appropriate apology letter – references to complaining parents’ Scarpia-like concern for education and beauty could be adequately discuised, I think – it would be entertaining at least.

Comment #88525

Posted by Tony on March 22, 2006 5:16 PM (e)

I normally don’t even bother going to websites such as Uncommon Descent in the first place, but morbid curiosity led me to read the track back. Wow!! The garbage that I’m reading there on UD regarding this subject is beyond the pale!

Tina Brewer posted:

In the news article which is linked, specific reference is made to the comment of the mother to the teacher “aren’t you a Christian?”. To me, this just says it all. So what if she isn’t a Christian?

To which, the following response from Doug Moran (moron?!?) was posted…

Your point seems to be that somehow a caring mother’s questioning of the teacher’s faith vindicates her (the teacher) from the crime of conspicuous emotional and spiritual abuse of innocent children. Since when are 6 year old children able to judge the moral value of entertainment media? Any parent of a first grader would know that it is not a slippery slope; it is quite simply barbarian indoctrination to expose children to such crud. Put a six year old in front of a porno and they will react quite predictably.

WTF!! First of all, a teacher’s (or anyone else’s) religious beliefs are no one else’s business as long as they are not trying to preach their religious views to a captive audience. All that matters is how well a teacher knows the subject matter that they have been trained and educated to teach. In addition, the Constitution clearly specifies that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. I include public school teachers as guardians of the public trust. Second of all, can anyone normal tell me how is introducing children to opera using a children’s instructional video “emotional and spiritual abuse?” And then attempting to make the jump equating this to pornography? Mr. Moron continues his rant…

Locked behind closed doors in public schools, parents have no defense. You might as well bring in live sex shows and indoctrinate our children in Kindergarten so they’re ready for all the pain and agony of the adulthood they’re being groomed for by the primary “defenders” of our democracy: the ACLU.

I can’t even imagine what kind of brainwashing this person has gone through. Is this what fundamentalism thinks about public education?

What is so telling is that Tina Brewer attempted to respond to this person. However, what actually made it past ds speaks volumes not only about the UD website, but christian fundamentalism overall…

Did I get a post deleted? Or did something go wrong? I responded to dougmoran, and I believe I sent it off properly…

Not even allowed to respond! That’s christian fundamentalism for you; check your brains at the door. No free thinking or exchange of ideas allowed here. One needs to look no further than Iran or the Taliban so see what happens when the wall separating Church and State is ever breeched.

Comment #88526

Posted by Sir_Toejam on March 22, 2006 5:29 PM (e)

Your point seems to be that somehow a caring mother’s questioning of the teacher’s faith vindicates her (the teacher) from the crime of conspicuous emotional and spiritual abuse of innocent children.

one wonders why Doug Moron isn’t up in arms about Kent Hovind’s consipicuous emotional and spiritual abuse of innocent children…

Comment #88543

Posted by Dante on March 22, 2006 8:29 PM (e)

Here’s more of what we’re up against.

I could swear DaveScot wrote the above.

Comment #88544

Posted by AR on March 22, 2006 8:31 PM (e)

Carol “Landa” Clouser wrote (comment 88434):

“God” is not God’s name.

Is that so? If this is not God’s name, it should not be forbidden to be said or written, as is in Judaism God’s name? Why then Orthodox Jews never say or write this word? If they have to write it, even in direct English quotations from the Scripture, they write instead “G-d.” In Hebrew, instead of Elohim, which is how it is written in the authentic Torah text, even directly quoting from the Torah, they would write “Elokim.” In speech it always is just “Hashem” which simply means “the name.”
I expect another condescending comment from Carol (who is so well versed in all such matters), sharing with us, ignorant PT’s visitors, her unsurpassed knowledge of how to say “God” in the proper translation.

Comment #88545

Posted by Jim Harrison on March 22, 2006 8:34 PM (e)

Off topic, but indirectly relevant to the issue of blasphemy: In the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Universe, the superdooper computer determined that the ultimate answer is 42–we never find out what the ultimate question was. I’ve wondered for a long time if the 42 is a reference to the especially powerful 42 letter name of God discussed in the Kabbalah. Does anybody have a line on this?

Comment #88553

Posted by frank schmidt on March 22, 2006 9:44 PM (e)

In Fulton, Missouri, local “Christians” complained about the high school putting on Grease because it referred to (HORRORS!!) smoking, drinking, and maybe even SEX in high school. The drama teacher then suggested The Crucible for the spring play, but that was deemed too “controversial.” The teacher is leaving the school district at the end of the year.

Ironically, the play chosen for this spring was Midsummer Night’s Dream, which features (HORRORS!!) cross-dressing, fairies, and BESTIAL SEX.

This latest episode of The Attack of the Bluenoses would be laughable except for the cowardice of people who should know better.

Comment #88564

Posted by CCP on March 23, 2006 1:33 AM (e)

“I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it.”

‘Clapton,’ right? Isn’t it ‘Clapton’?

Comment #88565

Posted by Carol Clouser on March 23, 2006 2:29 AM (e)

Jonboy,

All the Hebrew terms for God you cite are considered “titles” for God, not His personal name. For example, Elohim means “ruler”, El means “the mighty”, Adonay means “master”, and so on.

God’s personal name, the one tradition asserts that He chose for himself and conveyed this choice to the Israelites through Moses, and the name that is forbidden to be uttered but for the High Priest on Yom Kippur in the Holy of Holies, is none of those you mention.

Do I know that name? Yes. And I am not the only one. Will I reveal it here? No.

AR,

Now, despite the fact that the above “titles” are not names of God and are not in the same lofty catagory as the name, observant Jews do treat those titles with great care and respect and use substitutes in their stead.

Your declared expectation of a condenscending comment from me was most condenscending. Keep it up and you will join the club here of those I do not talk to.

Comment #88569

Posted by Lou FCD on March 23, 2006 7:01 AM (e)

Congratulations, AR! If enough of us all get into the cool “Carol won’t speak to us” Club, maybe she won’t have anyone left to talk to and she’ll go pandering elsewhere. Perhaps responding to the deceptive little book salesperson isn’t such a bad idea after all.

I think I’ve been in the club for a while now, but it’s never been so explicitly laid out. Maybe we can all get cool decoder rings, so we can all read the flood story in the original — it’s called the “Epic of Gilgemesh” and it wasn’t in hebrew.

And as has been pointed out to you several times, book salesperson, elohim is plural, and nobody cares what you or Landa think, and god’s name is Fred.

Comment #88573

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 8:11 AM (e)

Nobody has mentioned God’s name here. “God” is not God’s name. And I am quite sure most folks here wouldn’t know God’s name if they tripped over it.

Charlie?

Comment #88575

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 8:13 AM (e)

Carol, Let me try? In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named,it is represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (YHVH).

I’m curious, Carol. Who named God?

Did God name himself? Or did his Mommy do it?

Comment #88576

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 8:16 AM (e)

I know about the lunatics of the Christian Reconstructionist movement but I have never read anything about Rushdoony or the Chalcedon Foundation bankrolling the ID movement. Can you direct me towards some info on that?

Ask, and you shall receive:

The most militant of the Ayatollah-wanna-be’s are the members of the “Reconstructionist” movement. The Reconstructionists were founded by Rouas J. Rushdoony, a militant fundamentalist who was instrumental in getting Henry Morris’s book The Genesis Flood published in 1961. According to Rushdoony’s view, the United States should be directly transformed into a theocracy in which the fundamentalists would rule directly according to the will of God. “There can be no separation of Church and State,” Rushdoony declares. (cited in Marty and Appleby 1991, p. 51) “Christians,” a Reconstructionist pamphlet declares, “are called upon by God to exercise dominion.” (cited in Marty and Appleby 1991, p. 50) The Reconstructionists propose doing away with the US Constitution and laws, and instead ruling directly according to the laws of God as set out in the Bible—they advocate a return to judicial punishment for religious crimes such as blasphemy or violating the Sabbath, as well as a return to such Biblically-approved punishments as stoning.

According to Rushdoony, the Second Coming of Christ can only happen after the “Godly” have taken over the earth and constructed the Kingdom of Heaven here: “The dominion that Adam first received and then lost by his Fall will be restored to redeemed Man. God’s People will then have a long reign over the entire earth, after which, when all enemies have been put under Christ’s feet, the end shall come.” (cited in Diamond, 1989, p. 139) “Christian Reconstructionism,” another pamphlet says, “is a call to the Church to awaken to its Biblical responsibility to subdue the earth for the glory of God … Christian Reconstructionism therefore looks for and works for the rebuilding of the institutions of society according to a Biblical blueprint.” (cited in Diamond 1989, p. 136) In the Reconstructionist view, evolution is one of the “enemies” which must be “put under Christ’s feet” if the godly are to subdue the earth for the glory of God.

In effect, the Reconstructionists are the “Christian” equivilent of the Taliban.

While some members of both the fundamentalist and creationist movements view the Reconstructionists as somewhat kooky, many of them have had nice things to say about Rushdoony and his followers. ICR has had close ties with Reconstructionists. Rushdoony was one of the financial backers for Henry Morris’s first book, “The Genesis Flood”, and Morris’s son John was a co-signer of several documents produced by the Coalition On Revival, a reconstructionist coalition founded in 1984. ICR star debater Duane Gish was a member of COR’s Steering Committee, as was Richard Bliss, who served as ICR’s “curriculum director” until his death. Gish and Bliss were both co-signers of the COR documents “A Manifesto for the Christian Church” (COR, July 1986), and the “Forty-Two Articles of the Essentials of a Christian Worldview” (COR,1989), which declares, “We affirm that the laws of man must be based upon the laws of God. We deny that the laws of man have any inherent authority of their own or that their ultimate authority is rightly derived from or created by man.” (“Forty-Two Essentials, 1989, p. 8).

The Discovery Institute, the chief cheerleader for “intelligent design theory”, is particularly cozy with the Reconstructionists. The single biggest source of money for the Discovery Institute is Howard Ahmanson, a California savings-and-loan bigwig. Ahmanson’s gift of $1.5 million was the original seed money to organize the Center for Renewal of Science and Culture, the arm of the Discovery Institute which focuses on promoting “intelligent design theory” (other branches of Discovery Institute are focused on areas like urban transportation, Social Security “reform”, and (anti) environmentalist organizing).

Ahmanson is a Christian Reconstructionist who was long associated with Rushdooney, and who sat with him on the board of directors of the Chalcedon Foundation – a major Reconstructionist think-tank – for over 20 years, and donated over $700,000 to the Reconstructionists. Just as Rushdooney was a prime moving force behind Morris’s first book, “The Genesis Flood”, intelligent design “theorist” Phillip Johnson dedicated his book “Defeating Darwinism” to “Howard and Roberta” – Ahmanson and his wife. Ahmanson was quoted in newspaper accounts as saying, “My purpose is total integration of Biblical law into our lives.”

Ahmanson has given several million dollars over the past few years to anti-evolution groups (including Discovery Institute), as well as anti-gay groups, “Christian” political candidates, and funding efforts to split the Episcopalian Church over its willingness to ordain gay ministers and to other groups which oppose the minimum wage. He was also a major funder of the recent “recall” effort in California which led to the election of Terminator Arnie. Ahmanson is also a major funder of the effort for computerized voting, and he and several other prominent Reconstructionists have close ties with Diebold, the company that manufactures the computerized voting machines used. There has been some criticism of Diebold because it refuses to make the source code of its voting machine software available for scrutiny, and its software does not allow anyone to track voting after it is done (no way to confirm accuracy of the machine).

Some of Ahmanson’s donations are channeled through the Fieldstead Foundation, which is a subspecies of the Ahmanson foundation “Fieldstead” is Ahmanson’s middle name). The Fieldstead Foundation funds many of the travelling and speaking expenses of the DI’s shining stars.

Ahmanson’s gift of $1.5 million was the original seed money to organize the Center for Science and Culture, the arm of the Discovery Institute which focuses on promoting “intelligent design theory”. By his own reckoning, Ahmanson gives more of his money to the DI than to any other poilitically active group – only a museum trust in his wife’s hometown in Iowa and a Bible college in New Jersey get more. In 2004, he reportedly gave the Center another $2.8 million. He sits on the Board Directors of Discovery Institute.

Since then, as his views have become more widely known, Ahmanson has tried to backpeddle and present a kinder, gentler image of himself. However, his views are still so extremist that politicians have returned campaign contributions from Ahmanson once they learned who he was.

So it’s no wonder that the Discovery Institute is reluctant to talk about the funding source for its Intelligent Design campaign. Apparently, they are not very anxious to have the public know that most of its money comes from just one whacko billionnaire who has long advocated a political program that is very similar to that of the Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.

Comment #88577

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 8:19 AM (e)

I don’t believe that all of the working scientists and professors who support ID are doing so under the master plan of a covert or overt organization who is handing them money and their orders.

Yes, they are. And they were dumb enough to allow their written plan to get leaked to the Internet:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/wedge.html

Comment #88581

Posted by Raging Bee on March 23, 2006 8:47 AM (e)

Carol, Sole Keeper of the Ultimate Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything, That Knowledge Which is Without Form and Void Unless Spoken in the Original Language, didst write:

Keep it up and you will join the club here of those I do not talk to.

That’s most of us already – she’s completely ignored any question or fact that brings the slightest doubt on her silly and untenable thesis.

Comment #88583

Posted by Raging Bee on March 23, 2006 8:58 AM (e)

And they were dumb enough to allow their written plan to get leaked to the Internet…

They HAD to release the plan, otherwise their public rhetoric would be utter gbberish, even to their most ardent supporters. How else can they keep their radical Christian base mollified while telling the rest of us that their creation-story has nothing at all to do with religion? At some point, there would have had to be a definitive statement assuring their Christian supporters that their “we’re not saying it was God” line is a lie – otherwise the wrong people would have believed it.

Comment #88589

Posted by Julie Stahlhut on March 23, 2006 9:30 AM (e)

…. You might as well bring in live sex shows and indoctrinate our children in Kindergarten so they’re ready for all the pain and agony of the adulthood they’re being groomed for …

Hmmmm. If sex is “pain and agony”, doesn’t that mean you’re doing it wrong?

Comment #88600

Posted by Lars Karlsson on March 23, 2006 10:42 AM (e)

A bit off topic, but:
Do not underestimate the terror and trauma puppets can inflict. In Swedish television in the 70’s there was a children’s program series called “lost in the pancake”, by a man called Staffan Westerberg, that featured puppets. That traumatized an entire generation of Swedish children. In polls about who people hate most, he tends to come just below Hitler and Stalin.

(Is it a coincidence that Staffan is spelled almost the same as Satan?)

Comment #88617

Posted by BWE on March 23, 2006 11:50 AM (e)

http://www.wellbutrin-xl.com/

The above helps the pain and agony part too. (Plus a little ky.)

Comment #88622

Posted by Glen Davidson on March 23, 2006 12:18 PM (e)

Oh, that’s right, Carol is well above the knowledge of the actual writers of the Torah. The Elohist writer apparently didn’t know “God’s name”, or that El was just a title, but Carol knows better than a mere Torah author.

Well, I’m glad that’s all clear now. What I’m still wondering is if God had a name before Hebrew evolved into a form that we’d recognize. Did He just wait around being called “hey you” by all of the angels, hoping that primates on planet earth would come up with a language in which He could be named?

The IDists strike again, this time at the autonomy of God.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm

Comment #88623

Posted by k.e. on March 23, 2006 12:27 PM (e)

wheatdogg Said:

Please do not compare Dembski to Don Quijote….Sorry for the grumpiness. I studied Cervantes for three years in college, so I’m touchy on the subject.

Another literature lover, Namaste. No need to apologize.
Yes there is always a danger drawing a bow when life imitates art, just remember the story has only started for Dembski he has a long way to go yet and the future is anyones guess. Actually life doesn’t imitate art as you know, but arts source IS life and can provide a window into other peoples minds. The Greek Myths are not just about an ancient culture, Paris, that smooth operator is chasing girls in a nightclub tonight.

You’re right my brush did paint a little too broadly over Don Quijote by not making clear that ‘Count’ Dembski’s hucksterism for personal gain was more Faustian or Kurtish? (Heart of Darkness) or HH in (Lolita) than Quixotic. Note Kurt who created his own cult based on his own private myth, and had a mural of Lady Justice on the inside wall of his hut and knew he would have to face the music one day….Our Billy boy took the chickens option of not having his day in court in Dover and don’t tell me he didn’t know what would happen or that it didn’t bother him. He will have to meet his maker the mad molecule(his conscience if he has one) one day so I’m guessing a death bed confession ….or not. Lolita takes the private myth creation to justify H.H’s Madness to a new level but that arc in western literature can be traced back to Don Quixote. Madness as unfulfillable material desire.

Allow me to offer this. Note this is how I SEE it I’m not saying it is how anyone else would see it.
Cervantes wrote his masterpiece, which someone I met recently claimed was the second most popular book in the world after the Bible, at a time when the age of reason was beginning, the world was spherical after all and the idea of heaven and hell as separate places was plainly nonsense. The old romantic ideas of chivalry, honor and the idea that a man could find spiritual fulfillment by following an Arthurian idyll(yes That strict moral code, but also the lone journey of self discovery and the getting of wisdom), were on their way out. In a reaction to early humanistic reason’s rejection of romanticism Alonso Quijana embarks on his own ‘Fools Journey’(read this SUBJECTIVELY) he is called on a voyage of self discovery suddenly everything makes sense, or so it seems. He creates his own reality by reading mythic knights tales (creating a private myth) and imposes a semiotic heuristic onto the real world, that reality in his case, is actually a form of schizophrenia(the inward journey) his windmills (reality) are enchanted monsters from the imagined heroic deeds of the knights in the stories he has read. His platonic ideals of how life should BE cause him to create a magical reality, a common problem with new converts to particular religious sects interestingly enough. That insanity or madness is literally “to loose ones senses” if that is not a personal Hell, then what is hell ? Cervantes,Conrad,Nabokov move their characters resolve the insanity and redeem their anti-heroes so art may not imitate life …no?
The Demskian parallel complete with Salvador Cordova as his Sancho Panza is just too much to resist.
All Sal wanted was a little fame and glory he knew Dembski’s pontifications were just crazy rants in the end, after trying and failing to get them accepted here on PT. The end for him was when he popped his top after Eugenie Scott gushed all over him at some gig but still knifed him by coyly referring to their scheme as social engineering.

Comment #88627

Posted by Dave Strumfels on March 23, 2006 12:30 PM (e)

“These people are like an ice cube trying not to melt in hot water by sheer will power.”

One of the best lines I’ve ever heard. Anyone agree with me that it seems to be the prevailing human condition?

Comment #88628

Posted by BWE on March 23, 2006 12:41 PM (e)

Cervantes wrote his masterpiece, which someone I met recently claimed was the second most popular book in the world after the Bible

Not Marx? I couldn’t find it on the web but for some reason I always thought it was marx. Athough Cervantes is pretty good. Hi Ho Rocinante.

Comment #88701

Posted by axel on March 23, 2006 7:19 PM (e)

I’m an athiest and as liberal as the day is long and i still don’t think FSM is funny.
it lacks any subtlety. good satire should be should be scathing and clever and witty. FSM is a sack of doorknobs to face, it’s a dick and fart joke, not a very good one either. it reads like a fifth graders idea of parody.

also expelled for trying to expose kids to high culture. yeah thats gonna help the american education system

Comment #88703

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 7:28 PM (e)

Hmmmm. If sex is “pain and agony”, doesn’t that mean you’re doing it wrong?

“It hurts so good”. – John Cougar Mellancamp

Comment #88704

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 7:30 PM (e)

Do I know that name? Yes. And I am not the only one. Will I reveal it here? No.

Does anyone give a flying fig? No.

(shrug)

Comment #88705

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 7:32 PM (e)

Keep it up and you will join the club here of those I do not talk to.

Hey Carol, could you add me to that club, too?

Oh, and how long do you think it will be before you won’t be talking to *anyone*, and we won’t have to listen to your incessant preaching any more? Can you give me a rough time frame for that?

Thanks.

Comment #88720

Posted by burredbrain on March 23, 2006 9:41 PM (e)

Somewhat off topic, but since it came up, Carol Clouser has exposed an interesting conundrum:
1. The name of G-d is pronounced only once a year, by the high priest, in the Holy of Holies, on Yom Kippur. The high priest is supposed to be alone; no one else may enter.
2. It is forbidded to write the name of G-d.

So how is the name of G-d passed on the next high priest? Perhaps exceptions are made for the training of the next high priest?

But women are prohibited from being high priests, so how did Carol learn this information? And to what purpose?

When I was a kid, we used to tease other children by saying “I know something you don’t know, and I’m not gonna tell.” Of course what we knew was inconsequential, but it sure irritated the others.

Now I’ll go back to lurking.

Comment #88727

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 23, 2006 10:21 PM (e)

so how did Carol learn this information?

Judah Landa told her.

He knows everything.

Comment #88729

Posted by wheatdogg on March 23, 2006 11:22 PM (e)

k.e. –

And did I mention how much I dislike psychological literary analysis?

Just kidding. I got out of that game ages ago. Your point is well taken, if you are saying that Dembski et al. have created their own internally self-consistent world view that has little to do with the real world. They tilt at windmills (evolution), only to be dashed to the ground, then rationalize the experience by referring back to their internal world. Wizards enchanted the giants and made them into windmills!

Quijote was more likeable as a character, though. Humbert Humbert was just plain creepy, as well as tragic.

The debate about God’s name here brings to mind an Arthur C. Clarke short story called “The Nine Billion Names of God.” A computer in a Buddhist monastery has been programmed to find all of the names. When it reaches the last one, the stars go out.

So, just in case, folks, ease up on the names. You’ve used up a few already.

Comment #88730

Posted by qetzal on March 23, 2006 11:33 PM (e)

Doug Moran, at Uncommon Descent, apparently wrote:

Put a six year old in front of a porno and they will react quite predictably.

I’m not sure I know how a six year old would react. I wonder how Doug knows so much about it?

Oh, and God’s first name is Hallowed:

“Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name….”

Kind of an odd name; sounds a bit Saxon or something. (P.S. Sorry, Carol, for spilling the beans. Does this mean I’m in the club?)

Comment #88738

Posted by k.e. on March 24, 2006 12:45 AM (e)

Wheatdog:
Sure Psychological analysis of literature can take the pleasure out of letting a story wash over us and just let its meaning float to the surface, but for me on revisiting a story and trying to understand today’s events, it does help to make sense of the human condition an ‘aid de memoir’ if you like. And artists (probably unknowingly) tap into what for me are the hidden aspects of that condition. One tool of many. And depending on the point of view of the reader (are there any left ?) that type of ‘reading’ will of course provide ‘internally consistent’ results.
I agree Don Quixote IS a sympathetic character…. and for the later ‘incarnations’…. has the world become a less sympathetic place ?
Anyway it all gets a bit academic, like science, art ‘as a spectator sport’ is subject to the prejudices, personal beliefs, likes and dislikes of the spectator.
A truly great artist is one who can construct a story that talks to all of us and we each see ‘into the mind of man’ or the ‘aspects of the other’, expanding our horizons.
Movies today are probably performing that function best; note where they get their inspiration from …mans timeless tales, mythology.
Strangely that would be the ideal function of the old sacred texts which religion and windmill tilters constantly manage to twist into a form of madness.

Comment #88943

Posted by Carol Clouser on March 24, 2006 10:53 AM (e)

burredbrain,

There always existed a small circle of priests (kohanim), Levites (assistants to the priests) and scholars who knew the name in the holy tounge and passed the information on from generation to generation by providing instructions for its enunciation without actually enunciating it.

I happen to know this by virtue to my good fortune as a Levite and my many years of study.

The name is based on a hebrew acronym for the Hebrew words that mean, “was, is and will be”, not in this order.

As I said the Bible (that is the original correct version) makes all this quite clear, one just needs to know where to look.

Unfortunately, none of this has any practical consquences in the absence of the temple on Mt. Moriah, presently occupied by those Islamic structures put up there for the sole purpose of mimicking and being a thorn in the side of Judaism (despite what they say or claim).

Comment #89005

Posted by TheCult on March 24, 2006 4:30 PM (e)

Carol Clouser wrote:

There always existed a small circle of priests (kohanim), Levites (assistants to the priests) and scholars who knew the name in the holy tounge and passed the information on from generation to generation by providing instructions for its enunciation without actually enunciating it.

That’s not really verifiable is it? It is common practice amongst all of the priesthoods in all religions for some or many of the priests to try and use “sacred knowledge” as a means to an end i.e I can tell people I know the magical incantation/esoteric knowledge/true meaning because it has been passed down to me in a secret order or method of which I am a member of and therefore I deserve worship/adoration/wealth.

How do you know where your version of the so called “name of god” originally came from? You don’t. You think you know it is true, but it is simply faith on your part.

I happen to know this by virtue to my good fortune as a Levite and my many years of study.

You think you know but you have no way to verify that what you think is true actually is true.

The name is based on a hebrew acronym for the Hebrew words that mean, “was, is and will be”, not in this order.

Name shmame.The Jewish religion is an eclectic mix of older traditions. The names of God in the bible were taken from surrounding areas from other traditions e.g from zoroastrianism (mazdaism), Heliopolitan, Rhodian, Vedic, etc. It wasn’t until the babyloinian exile that judaism started to become montheistic due to the influence of their savior (he’s called a messiah in the bible) from captivity Cyrus the Great. At that time the persian conquered babylon, their religion was zoroastrianism, which is monotheistic and highly moralistic and ethical. The mixing of the hebrew’s various religious beliefs with zoroastrianism was to form the beginning of judaism as a singular montheistic tradition. There were monotheists amongst the hebrew peoples at that time due to the influence of various other traditions, but there was no single hebrew religion, most were polytheists or henotheists, they were a people united by nationalism, not religion.

As I said the Bible (that is the original correct version) makes all this quite clear, one just needs to know where to look.

And the “Book of Mormon” makes it quite clear that a bunch of jews left judea before that time and eventually sailed to south america and created a great civilization. They split into good and bad tribes and the good guys got wiped out. The bad guys are the incas, mayans, aztecs, etc. It is quite clear that the messiah appeared to them as jesus also.

Point being that books that claim divine authorship are a dime a dozen.

Unfortunately, none of this has any practical consquences in the absence of the temple on Mt. Moriah, presently occupied by those Islamic structures put up there for the sole purpose of mimicking and being a thorn in the side of Judaism (despite what they say or claim).

Like god cares about some building. Like god cares about some priest muttering some “secret” word in some building.

These songs are a billion times more spiritually potent then some creepy dudes hiding god away in some building somewhere with a “No one allowed” sign.

Govinda:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S3VBI4ER

Mystical Machine Gun:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IQF0WMMM

Tattva:
http://s52.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1F3Z0KIFDI0P72T2HA8N1XHR7J

Shower Your Love:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ONG967ZP

Comment #89008

Posted by Steviepinhead on March 24, 2006 4:57 PM (e)

Oh Carol:

I happen to know this by virtue [of] …my many years of study.

Ah! That explains what you were doing when you weren’t learning evolution.

Comment #89010

Posted by Sir_Toejam on March 24, 2006 5:01 PM (e)

Shower Your Love:

Isn’t that the one by I.P. Freely?

(sorry, couldn’t resist)

Comment #89011

Posted by Sir_Toejam on March 24, 2006 5:03 PM (e)

…or maybe it was R Kelly?

Comment #89020

Posted by Matt Young on March 24, 2006 5:42 PM (e)

I am not as superstitious as Ms. Clouser. The ineffable name of God is YHWH (or YHVH). That is the name used in the J document; the E document uses Elohim. God was also known by other names. The name Jehovah derives from YHWH; the vowels were inserted by analogy with Adonai, a euphemism used to avoid pronouncing YHWH.

No one truly knows how YHWH was pronounced. It is sometimes rendered Yahveh or Yahweh. I have my doubts about those pronunciations.

An article in Biblical Archeology Review a number of years ago noted that the suffix -yahu was sometimes appended to Hebrew names, as in Yeshayahu, or Isaiah-yahu, and Yirmiyahu, or Jeremiah-yahu. In addition, Jehu (pronounced Yehu) was one of the kings of Israel.

Such considerations suggested to the author of that article that the ineffable name, when rendered effable, may have been pronounced Yahuah or Yahoah.

If I recall correctly, the article in BAR was not exactly greeted warmly, but it seems possible to me that Jehovah is after all close to the truth.

Comment #89025

Posted by Niles on March 24, 2006 6:07 PM (e)

(((Put a six year old in front of a porno and they will react quite predictably.)))

Inferring “porno” means pornographic/erotica visual dramatic depiction in some recorded format, albeit this is a presumption on my part…Any adult with a six year old sprog in their care can definitely predict the following:

S/he wil demand that you stop wasting their viewing time with the boring stupid video. Take it out and put on “My Little Pony Blows Bubbles, Part 43” (or suitable video fixation. Every parent and baby sitter has been through this)be played for the 419th time this week.

What is it with these adults insisting on projecting their own repressed fantasies everywhere they look and claiming they’re ‘doing it for the children’.

Comment #89043

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 24, 2006 7:36 PM (e)

Gee, Carol, thanks for (yet again) sgharing your religious opinions with everyone.

Why, again, should anyone give a flying fig about them … ?

Comment #89062

Posted by Michael Rathbun, FCD on March 24, 2006 9:41 PM (e)

Lenny:

Minor quibble:

Rouas J. Rushdoony

That’s actually “Rousas”.

Comment #89326

Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on March 26, 2006 1:13 AM (e)

I cna spelll, I jst cnat tipe.

:)

Thanks.

Comment #90302

Posted by Marianne on March 28, 2006 9:42 PM (e)

I bet Mary Martin or any other actress who ever played “Peter Pan” are having a good laugh.
Here is some positive brain-stroking for this feeble minded community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants_role

Comment #90303

Posted by Marianne on March 28, 2006 9:45 PM (e)

I bet Mary Martin or any other actress who ever played “Peter Pan” are having a good laugh.
Here is some positive brain-stroking for this feeble minded. totally uneducated community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants_role

Comment #90478

Posted by abyssal_leviathin on March 29, 2006 4:50 PM (e)

As a Christian I’d like to apologize for the behavior of those people in Colorodo. “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” -Jesus

Comment #90494

Posted by Stephen Elliott on March 29, 2006 6:02 PM (e)

Posted by Niles on March 24, 2006 06:07 PM (e)

(((Put a six year old in front of a porno and they will react quite predictably.)))

Inferring “porno” means pornographic/erotica visual dramatic depiction in some recorded format, albeit this is a presumption on my part…Any adult with a six year old sprog in their care can definitely predict the following:

S/he wil demand that you stop wasting their viewing time with the boring stupid video. Take it out and put on “My Little Pony Blows Bubbles, Part 43” (or suitable video fixation. Every parent and baby sitter has been through this)be played for the 419th time this week.

What is it with these adults insisting on projecting their own repressed fantasies everywhere they look and claiming they’re ‘doing it for the children’.

I am not so sure about that. At 6 or 7 years old my son was definately interested in getting to see naked women.

Comment #99613

Posted by online directory main on May 1, 2006 7:43 PM (e)

hello! http://www.dirare.com/Sweden/ online directory. SMART Yellow Pages, About DIRare, Search in Business Category. From online directory .